The schools and residents of Swanage have managed to get more consultation on how two-tier education will work in the town. But this does not have to be limited to primary schools.
Swanage should get a new secondary school rather than bussing over 700 children from the area to Wareham every day.
We are the ONLY town in Dorset not to have a secondary school (except for new town Verwood) but we have enough children to fill one.
The Purbeck School will soon take 1750 children - making it enormous - bigger than 97 per cent of secondary schools in the country - most are half that size. Do we want children to go from tiny village schools to a huge comp split over two sites in Wareham? Why can't one of the sites be here?
The town lost its two secondary schools by one vote in 1974. This is a chance to put it right.
We could get adult education and sports facilities at the same time, plus all the benefits of after-school activities and better parental involvement.
Jim Knight agrees, Bill Trite agrees, the main Conservative party agree and say that communities should have their own schools. Only Dorset CC want to deny us the right to have this choice.
Carl Styants
Posted by Anonymous to swanageview at 3:39 PM
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Just to be clear,
¨Swanage should get a new secondary school rather than bussing over 700 children from the area to Wareham every day¨.
Is it fair to assume that includes the yr9 to 13 who are already bussed over there?
¨The Purbeck School will soon take 1750 children ...... Why can't one of the sites be here¨?
That´s a very good point, but couldn´t it be in Wool or Upton? What happens if the planned expansion of Lychett Matravers goes ahead?
¨The town lost its two secondary schools by one vote in 1974. This is a chance to put it right¨.
Totally different issue, please don´t further muddy already pretty opaque waters
¨We could get adult education ... and better parental involvement¨.
Good point.
¨Jim Knight agrees - WHOA - DOES HE? -, Bill Trite agrees - SO? -, the main Conservative party agree and say that communities should have their own schools. Only Dorset CC want to deny us the right to have this choice.
Bear in mind, DCC are Conservative controlled, nationally,the Conservative party are in opposition.
Spin, spin, spin around in circles.
Me now, DCC have repeatedly stated that the opposition doesn´t understand the ´actualite´ - acute e - that is their baseline, and from their point of view it´s a bloody good one.
Railing against them is useless, get in touch with the new Minister, they may just want to make a statement, but there again they may not.
Personal experience of this problem: 3 years at SGS, 4 years at Purbeck; outcome: educationally I´d´ve done better if all SGS, socially, thank god for Purbeck.
The travelling didn´t bother me, but then, maybe I´m strange.
Some empirical evidence about the effect of school size would be a good idea. I found http://eppi.ioe.ac.uk/cms/Default.aspx?tabid=320 which summarises some and says:
The larger the secondary school, the better pupils’ results and attendance, but only up to a certain size of school. The estimates of the ideal size range from about 600 to 2000 students.
but also:
Pupils felt less engaged with larger schools.
Teachers felt less happy with the climate in larger schools.
Some kinds of violent behaviour rose as school size increased while other kinds of violent behaviour increased as school size decreased.
However the clincher for DCC may well be:
Costs per pupil decreased as school size increased.
As this is the worst funded LEA it looks like hobsons choice.
The prospect of a school which is likely to get worse results and cost more to run is not very attractive.
Can the opponents of bussing 11 year olds 10 miles point to some empirical evidence of harm?
I think the points that Carl makes are good ones and that in September when DCC start their new consultation those of us who agree need to argue our point.
Just to respond to the anonymous posts above: I think the figure of 700 children comes from one of the DCC Purbeck Review documents that they produced in January and covers ages 11 to 16..
Why on earth would a second Purbeck School site be in Wool or Upton? The point is that Swanage is a the biggest town and it makes sense to have a second school where half the children are rather than 10 miles away.
The loss of a school from the town in 1974 is not a separate issue - a secondary school (or 2) went, now some people would like one back.
Jim Knight's letter on the Purbeck Review bit of Dorsetforyou.com argues that Swanage deserves a secondary school and at the time he was schools minister, so it is significant. It is also significant if Swanage's County Councillor agrees that there is an argument to be made.
I don't think this is a political issue - it's a common sense issue. A town 10 miles from its nearest neighbour needs to have a school, it's as simple as that - everywhere else in Dorset has one.
The educational points are interesting - looking at that eppi website shows that the results are mixed and there isn't enough evidence either way. There are examples of good tiny schools and good larger schools but most good schools are of average size - between 700 and 1000 pupils. Most of the research papers they quote are from the US, where there is a move to split up larger schools into smaller units. That's what would be best for our district, I think - one school with a shared ethos but teaching children in their own towns. I don't see any evidence there that educational standards would be lower in a school in Swanage. It will be more expensive, but Purbeck has always been underfunded compared to the rest of Dorset, so maybe it's time our children got a fair share.
Regarding bussing children daily: the harm is to the environment and in the waste of the children's time. They won't be able to take part in after school activities to the same degree as Wareham children and anyone who remembers going to school on a bus will know that it is often where the worst bullying is.
For me this is about making Swanage a sustainable place in all meanings of the word. It makes no sense in the face of rising fuel prices and the need to cut CO2 emmissions to bus children (if parents of 11 year olds are prepared to put them on the bus) over 20 miles a day. It makes no sense to waste an hour a day in travel when there are enough children to populate a school within their own town. It makes no sense to invest up to £100 million on a single large new build school in Wareham when we will have two empty secondary schools in Swanage and Purbeck School ripe for renovation or redevelopment at a lower cost.
A new school here would boost our economy, increase the viability of the town for families who want to move here or return, and it would give Swanage's children the respect they deserve.
Paul and Carl, you have said most of it already, and I support your views too.
Just to add..
If secondary education is implemented in Swanage it would be good for our children, the community and would be better for the environment, than transporting hundreds of children to Wareham each day. I understand that there will be a problem with after school club transport.
How can having secondary education in Swanage be a bad thing? The majority of children would be able to walk, it would, I'm sure have a positive impact on the businesses in Swanage. Local Estate Agents would be able to attract younger families to this area, if the majority of children's education was in Swanage. We have talked of a 'vision' for Swanage, and it includes education. For the Swanage area to continue to be a thriving and sustainable town it needs a good strong infrastructure. Once again we are trying to avoid a loss to our community. Dorset Council should not be trying to take the simplest and most economic option for our childen and community. The government seem to think that we are well off in rural Purbeck, and they allocate the lowest funding per child for education. We live in a beautiful area, but we are not well off!! We all need to shout out loudly that we need more funding for Purbeck. The possibilities for something positive to happen out of this school review could be amazing, they could also be disastous.
It has been confirmed that oil prices will increase soon, this will make transport to Wareham uneconomic. Swanage has also been crying out for a central Sports Centre, this too could be a part of this vision.
The problem with all these positive ideas is making all of this public and sharing this with the people of Swanage and the surrounding villages! Maybe there should be a community consultation document that could be delivered to every door via the Advertiser.
Perhaps Swanage Town Council would be able to support this action.
Could we not bus teachers between sites? I would have thought that would be pretty easy to organise in terms of timetables etc.
If the rumour is true and they are going to flatten Purbeck School, then they could just build a smaller, more efficient school. A secondary for Wareham and a Secondary for Swanage. Both with seperate teachers. No bussing or travelling between. This would create more employment for each town, and not just focus on Wareham. We need people moveing/employment for Swanage,not just Wareham. The sustainable transport argument may be the one that wins the day.
Dorset has had the lowest or second lowest spend per pupil for decades. Its hard to see why this should change now. The CO2 per pupil of a bus containing 50 or more going 10 miles is not that great and however expensive fuel gets its cost is only pennies per child per journey. Having a secondary school in Swanage would be nice but you have an uphill task persuading DCC to take anything but the cheapest option. Good luck though.
If, as proposed, the buildings of Wareham Middle are used for years 6 and 7 the question of 11 year olds going from small schools to a large one does not arise.
I stand by the point I made some time ago that when we had a grammar school the 11 year olds who came from as far afield as Bovington did not appear to suffer from the journey and they had to walk from the station to the school. I think we want to infantalise our children now. Mine went to Purbeck. One found his bus rowdy and swapped to one his friends used, the other was just amused by the antics of the livelier element. I really dont think going two years earlier woud have been a problem for them, a view they support. 11 year olds are not babies. In most places they go to school by public transport.
¨The Purbeck School has a falling population which provides for real difficulties in being able to develop and deliver the full range of opportunities in the local area that are required to meet the statutory entitlement in 2013. If numbers are not increased the successful provision at a local level will be difficult to achieve and young people may have to travel to Weymouth or Bournemouth in order to access what is required¨.
http://www.dorsetforyou.com/index.jsp?articleid=392770
Appendix K
----------------
¨Further consultation should be undertaken with Wool and Swanage to develop options for education within the context of two tier in their respective areas¨.
http://www.dorsetforyou.com/index.jsp?articleid=390579
Letter sent to Staff July 09 (and Govenors).
-----------
So, it´s 2 tier, sorry.
I am not sure why people are providing arguments against a secondary school here. They mainly boil down to 'it won't do future generations any harm having to travel miles to school because it didn't do me any harm' and 'convincing Dorset will be too difficult'.
Well, your education has certainly turned you into happy, motivated people who want to make a real contribution.
Next topic, why the lifeboat station should move to Wareham
No, this is a head versus heart argument.
In the heart, yeah, full Schooling in Swanage. In the head, nah, DCC reckon they can´t afford it, so it´s two-tier. I believe that ´trying to convince them otherwise´ will be like pushing soup uphill. The decision is made. End of.
Now make the most of that and ensure that it´s done well, cuz as in my 11:59 post, the experts (!) reckon that if it´s not done well then your kids may have to go B´mouth or W´mouth to achieve a full education.
If the Tories get in next will they scrap Diplomas, thus removing this problem? Dunno, they´ve criticised some aspects of the Dip, but I can´t find anything saying that they´ll scrap them. They seem to be more interested in making sure that the GCSE/A Level route remains for the academically blessed, and then there´s the Dip.
Seems reminiscent of the system I grew up in!
I do find this all getting a bit semi-detached. Along came DCC and said they are going to reduce the number of schools, what do we think about it, and lo and behold we have someone suggesting opening a new school in Swanage instead. At a time when the politicians are competing with each other for ways of cutting public spending. You are going to be hard pressed to get the price of a duck house out of then after the next election, let alone a school.
5.10 You are confused. This is not an argument about two or three tier. It's almost certain that we will move to two tier - ie primary schools and secondary schools, not first, middle and uppers. The only thing that will change that is if the money simply isn't available - hence the reason for the 'in principle' decision. If money IS available why shouldn't Swanage get some of it?
95 per cent of the country is two-tier and in many ways it makes sense to move our schools in line with the national key stages. We have brilliant first schools and no one will be upset to keep our children in them a bit longer. A lot of families are moving here because of them. The reason they are brilliant is that parents can get involved and they are part of the community. They are not 10 miles away.
The point we are making is that in 1974 the middle school was the sweetener - look the town isn't losing all its secondary education. Now they are taking that last bit away and smoothly saying it's only two extra years. What we have to remember is that there are 860 children in Swanage and Langton aged 11-16 and our figures are not plummeting like the rest of Purbeck (see DCC's own Ward figures at http://www.dorsetforyou.com/media/pdf/0/6/DCC_Ward_Projections.pdf ).
Verwood is the only other town in Dorset that doesn't have a secondary school and it currently has an outstanding middle school and a choice of three schools around.
We have every right to demand a school here. We have experts and information that show it is at least worth investigating. We don't need ill-researched arguments, thank you, because we know we have a case. What we want is to build momentum before the consultation in September as it will take heart as well as head to make it happen because the people have to fight for it. In the last round DCC did not take a blind bit of notice about the valid arguments anyone made. The only reason we have a second consultation is because of the sheer volume of protest, the letters and emails and constant bad press locally and nationally. DCC care more about heart than head.
Forget whether it is difficult, do you want a school (and sports facilities and adult education) in Swanage and all the benefits it brings? You don't have to justify it; experts will do that. You just have to be one of many who ask for it.
dear 7:31
it aint me that´s confused!
You´re taking the heart side of the argument, and in a perfect world I agree - as I said in my post.
The heart isn´t going to win, I hope I´m wrong, but I don´t really think that there´s much chance of that!
¨and our figures are not plummeting like the rest of Purbeck¨
No, they say that we´ll have another 30 kids over the next 10 years - in Swanage N, in Swanage S we´ll have less, far less - that comes from your link - and you mention poor research!
¨Forget whether it is difficult, do you want a school (and sports facilities and adult education) in Swanage and all the benefits it brings¨?
As I said, in my heart - yes. In my head - it aint gunna happen.
This news story is interesting
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2048311_parents_consider_setting_up_a_new_secondary_school
Swanage and Langton's fall (about 160 by 2018) is less than the Lytchett area (about 1000, and which has just had £11m spent on Lytchett Minster school being rebuilt in the middle of nowhere.)
Even Labour, who like big schools, ask that standalone new schools should cater for 750 children to allow for a drop of 20 per cent in the roll. They see 600 as reasonable to aim for.
But there are lots of different ways of providing secondary education. Jim Knight, for instance, suggests a school that allows St Mark's children to start at 4 and go on to 18, with others joining at 11. He says it would be feasible with only 450 secondary age pupils and would keep all four primary schools going
Sorry, link didn't work
Type "Parents consider setting up a secondary school" in Google
Grrr, should have read Lytchett area falls by 300 from 1020 to 720.
The total figures for Purbeck 11-16s go from 3,250 now down to 2,730 by 2018, falling 520 in total.
Hello, Carl again. Thanks for the comments so far
To save time here are the arguments from the Review team against a secondary school, which were presented to Cabinet at the same time as suggesting there should be more consultation in Swanage.
Proposal: Secondary school for Swanage
Concern: Suggestions as follows:-
1. To expand the middle school into a secondary school up to the age of 16 in Swanage.
2. To create a hub of The Purbeck school in Swanage.
Response: The authority recognises that the idea of full secondary provision up to the age of 16 is an attractive proposition to the town of Swanage. It respects the thinking behind both proposals and recognises how this would reduce some of the transport implications of moving to two tier for Swanage.
Nationally the vast majority (95%) of secondary schools have a population of 500 pupils or above ; most have a population considerably more than that. Whilst accepting that small secondary schools do exist, it is difficult to identify the educational arguments in favour of such moves for the Purbeck area.It could reinforce some of the least satisfactory aspects of the status quo.
A Swanage secondary school would at best sustain three forms of entry per year group. On the face of it this sounds attractive in encouraging small teaching groups with a strong community feel to the school. It is also recognised that a couple of case studies do exist where secondary provision has gone down to this size school. However, with the new 14-19 curriculum coming into being, this will make it even harder for those schools to deliver the full national entitlement. Such examples of small secondary schools are extremely rare; this is for a variety of sound educational reasons.
Assuming a split site hub or a separate secondary school existed for Years 7-11; this model would be based upon the increasingly discredited 3 year KS3 model and would be counter to the new secondary planning from QCA.
Crucially it would result in there being virtually no sustainable subject option in Years 9-11 because optional subject class sizes would either be unsustainably small or so small that there were would be no flexibility at all in terms of grouping students. Examples would be Key Stage 4 Textiles or the three separate sciences subjects; comparatively small subjects but intrinsically important to a rich secondary curriculum. In a typical year group of 300 about 25 – 30 students opt for each of these subjects. If 10 were based in Swanage and 20 in Wareham for example how could the secondary school(s) meet those choices? It would pose serious problems both in the organisation
of classes and access to specialist equipment. Even if the funding per students (AWPU) could support this level of expenditure it would be difficult to justify it in value for money terms.
At Key Stage 4, apart from English & Maths, every subject is optional and the scenario described in the previous paragraph would be repeated at least a dozen times over. This would negatively affect opportunities, not only for Swanage 13-19 year olds but all those in the rest of the pyramid.
The only possible way forward might be to cut choice dramatically but even this would not guarantee viable groups at either site. The likely outcome would be to limit opportunities for staff, parents and students which could result in increasing numbers becoming dissatisfied and moving away from the area.
Furthermore, there are concerns around equality, standards and the quality of learning and the efficient use of resources.
The equality argument operates at a number of levels. At its simplest, unless there were to be an exceptional resource investment, students not based in Wareham could not routinely access the outstanding sports facilities currently on offer. Neither could they access the specialist equipment in Music, Science & Design Technology which are vital to spark the interest and enthusiasm of younger children even if they do not go on to specialist study. Serious questions would need to be asked for example in investing in specialist equipment in subjects such as D&T. Equipment would have to be doubled with the subsequent cost. Some of the inequalities in the status quo would be reinforced but more sharply focused on Swanage children. In terms of standards and the quality of the learning experience, the implications could become unacceptable not only for Swanage children but all of Years 7 & 8.
There is plenty of legitimate scope for discussion about how best to organise the curriculum for learning whether by age or ability. However, reducing the pool of students at any one time reduces management options. The possibility of setting by ability (used by most secondary schools and positively supported by parents and government) would be extremely limited and students of all abilities would lose out. It would not be possible to provide the necessary stretch, pace or challenge at any level. It would be most evident, at the extremes that the best that could be offered to a group of about 90 students would be some rough ability banding. The most and least able would be especially at risk.
Beyond the classroom there would be concerns about student’s personal development and the development of the school as a vibrant learning community. At 11 years old, there is a powerful argument that young people need to stretch their horizons. With 90 young people in each year group set apart in Swanage, serious concerns would be raised in offering school plays, competitive sport, musical events and the development of a confident student voice. The move would build in inequality and do nothing to contribute to (OfSTED’s) social cohesion agenda. The efficient deployment of resources also impinges on standards and the quality of learning. With specialist teachers travelling to Swanage there would inevitably be financial and environmental costs most likely to be in excess of the transport implications with one proposed secondary school at Wareham. More importantly, as far as the quality of learning goes, the flexibility to deploy staff to their strengths across the entire age range would be severely compromised. The timetable would be severely compromised as a massive constraint is introduced. Students of all ages would have large blocks of time with a limited range of teachers and while that may not be all bad, it would be negative in terms of providing specialist teaching in Key Stage 4 & 5.
The economic costs would be substantial. The staffing bonus and curriculum flexibility resulting from economies of scale would be dramatically reduced and spread more thinly. Assuming 3 forms of entry over Years 7 & 8 there would need to provision for at least 300 teacher contacts per cycle. In a secondary school every student has contact with at least 10 subject specialists per cycle. Assuming that just 25 teachers were travelling to Swanage, at least one full time equivalent would be swallowed up in travelling time. There would also be practical considerations e.g. after school meetings would not be able to start before 4.15. The directed time budget would be severely stretched and it is likely that there would be a largely negative response from staff.
However, we do recognise community concerns about provision for 11-16 year olds in Swanage. New provision in Swanage needs to recognise the needs of this group and the authority would want to work with all parties to develop an exciting educational future. All partners (including schools, youth & health service) need to engage and provide study, personal development and social opportunities in Swanage to provide a genuine extended school provision focused on the Every Child Matters outcomes. It may be possible to develop a flexible learning facility that provides for the primary ages and enables students from 11-18 to study, do homework, engage with the wider community or just socialise when they get off the bus at the end of the day (or earlier perhaps for some groups e.g. post 16). It is not difficult to envisage, based on a new primary focused learning campus in the town available from 8 am to 8pm or later. The authority would want to work with the Swanage community to see what provision could be put in place.
In conclusion, it is fully acknowledged that secondary provision as outlined in options 1 and 2 are attractive propositions to the Swanage community. However, there would be grave educational consequences on all secondary provision across the area which would most likely affect standards.
Ends
That is interesting. None of the comments posted hitherto in favour of a secondary school in Swanage have explored the question of a very large school being able to offer its students wider choice than would be the case with two small schools. It is not unlike the situation we have where many people prefer to drive to a large supermarket for their shopping because of the perceived choice on offer. We might not like it but it is what happens.
Their arguments sound very convincing but only tell one view. There are small schools that offer a wide range of subjects at GCSE and A level. Schools that re praised for their broad curriculum and value for money. The average size of school is about 950, with a quarter less than 600. There doesn't seem to be a plan to make all of them twice as big.
All schools will now start to offer a much wider choice of subjects to age 19 because of new vocational diplomas. The only way they can do that is to work in partnership with other schools. Purbeck has started working with Kingston Marwaud but all schools in the area have historically been a bit insular. A 21st century education system apparently involves lots of choice working in partnership with other schools, colleges and businesses.
Whether this breadth of choice is a good thing is another matter, but it is worth investigating if and how Swanage could join in
Hello, Paul here again. This thread's got busy!
I get annoyed by 'head vs heart' arguments which help no-one. Those of us keen to see a school back in Swanage aren't stupid but we are brave enough to stand up and be counted. I met a lot of locals who told us we'd never get DCC to think again over Swanage First School. We did, because we had the facts on our side. We need to investigate whether the same is true here, bot just be cowed by the centralising tendencies of DCC. If the facts go against us, then fine, but why give up without even asking the key questions?
Personally I favour a new 'satellite school' that is governed by Purbeck, thereby reducing overheads and keeping the breadth of curriculum they say they offer.
I also think there are four key questions we need to prove:
Are there enough children in the Swanage catchment to populate a school? According to DCC figures, yes there are, even if we accept the slight fall they show by 2018.
Will there still be enough children elsewhere in Purbeck to potulate the Wareham hub of the school? Yes - according to DCC's own figures there would be a good sized school still.
If BSF money was available would it pay for what we are talking about? According to Jim Knight, yes it would. [If DCC are to borrow the money as they now suggest, they could spend it however they want of course].
Will standards be maintained if the school were to be split between the two towns in Purbeck? Hard to answer - DCC couldn't even answer this when asked if Purbeck's standards would improve or remain the same under their plans. Their assertion that a school of under 900 children would be unviable was rubbished and never mentioned again after the first public meeting. Again, the Schools Minister seems to think that there would be no problem, and the DCSF plus the international research compiled in that EPPI report showed that the results of different size schools were more dependent on the demographic feeding in and (more importantly for our argument) parental involvement in the school itself.
I do accept that some people will prefer a larger school based rather worryingly on their view that Wareham is 'the wider world' and some people (as they do now) will choose a grammar school in Poole over what is on offer locally. But I believe that most people want sensible simplicity and local services and a new school chosen by the community, built for the community and supported by the community would ensure an excellent education for children who are otherwise faced with daily removal from their community.
As I said, in my heart - yes. In my head - it aint gunna happen.
7:47 PM
An' I say hey 'you man' need to get more positive, if you are local and give a snip about kids lives, community and environment, then get positive man and think with your 'ed and your 'art. Come now, we lot, we live in Dorset, and in the same county as those Tolpuddle Martyrs, we can make a difference!!
Swanage should get a new secondary school rather than bussing over 700 children from the area to Wareham every day.
As it stands with numbers at the moment,how many children could be at the New Secondary School. 11 - 16's.
In the 2001 Census, the most accurate data available, there were 937 11-16s in Swanage and Langton. There were 277 17-18s too
There were also 110 11-16s in Corfe and Studland and roundabouts
Now the guesswork
According to DCC's projections, based on birth rates, historic migration patterns and approved new housing projects, there should now be 810 11-16s in Swanage and Langton.
Not all will go to catchment schools. A few parents send their children to Sandford Middle to get their children into Lytchett, or to Uplands to get into Poole Grammar.
Numbers are set to rise in North Swanage - not sure why this is the case. Are there any housing projects planned?
Some of the argument on this thread concerning pupil numbers is not taking into account the positive effect that a new school in Swanage would have on family immigration to the town. It may not increase overall but would surely go some way in halting the reduction, thereby giving added value to the whole project. As a community we need to give ourselves the oppotunity to have a 21st century school here in our town. A sustainable and modern solution, not the DCC big is better idea from the mid 20th century. It really can happen and thrive, we just need to fight for it not throw up our hands in despair. Peverilpen
Please do keep the comments coming, especially any observations on matters of FACT; for example, where the statistics on which the decisions are based may have been skewed or omitted.
I believe that I am going to be one of two representatives on the Town Council to take part in the further consultation, so I need to be fully informed.
Or email me directly on mail(at)mikehadley.net
MIke Hadley
Did anyone see Torchwood?
DCC are the 456
Can someone explain how removing about 500 pupils from Purbeck School addresses the problems stemming from its roll falling?
There are 2 answers to the question about removing 500 - 600 pupils from Purbeck and how that would affect it.
According to DCC a falling roll at Purbeck School means that by 2018 there would be fewer than 1000 children there. In the Purbeck Review DCC planned to create a school of up to 1800 children excluding the sixth form. They revised that figure down to about 1400 I believe, though without much explanation other than the very large school proposed appeared to be unpopular.
So the first answer depends on you accepting DCC's original assertion that a school of around 900 children is unviable. The average sized school in the UK at present is 975 according to DCSF. DCC went very quiet on this which leads me to believe that as is true elsewhere a school of 900 - 1000 children is perfectly viable. So my answer would be that Purbeck School would still be of the average size for the UK and so would not be detramentally affected.
This doesn't get us away from the fact that a school in Swanage would be smaller still. There is a lot of evidence to show that smaller schools are as good as larger ones, but people are nervous about this. That's why I prefer the idea of a Swanage campus of the Purbeck School, offering a broader curriculum overall than Purbeck would on a single campus and doing so in a genuinely sustainable way, environmentally, economically and in terms of community cohesion in Swanage.
The second answer relies on some assumptions. Purbeck School's roll is falling. Is this due to a lack of children or a poor reputation?
There are, according to DCC, around 1000 children aged 11-16 from the Purbeck Pyramid whose parents choose to send them to 'better' schools - in Lytchett and Poole mostly. As has been mentioned before, there are 800+ 11-16 year olds in Swanage & Langton yet only around 600 at Purbeck and years 7&8 of the middle school, all according to DCC themselves. Where do the other 200 go? Around 30 seem to go to Sandford & Wareham middle, but DCC haven't supplied figures for the rest.
The future may be different. Purbeck School just got a vastly improved OFSTED report so there is a good chance that the upcoming years will see a rise in the number of parents who have renewed faith in the school and who keep their children within the Purbeck pyramid. A Swanage campus could also see parents who currently don't like the idea of sending their children to Wareham keeping their children in a local school. John Nash would describe that suggestion as a gamble, but seems prepared to gamble on the economic viability of a whole town if he leaves us without any education post-11.
As I said, that second answer relies on some assumptions, but DCC have done nothing so far to address an extremely leaky Purbeck Pyramid - they just seem to accept it.
Many of the missing 200 are in private schools, some are being home educated and some are getting home tuition from the lea for a variety of reasons but mainly health and some are at special schools. A proportion of Swanage parents have long sent their children to Wareham or Sandford Middle because they think they are better. When 30 odd did this in one year in the mid 90s it caused a measure of consternation and soul searching at Swanage Middle.
I know it is a seperate issue but the biggest problem with local schools I found was the low expectations they had of what the children could attain. Friends who taught at schools outside Swanage were also aware of this. The view from the Wareham end seemed to be that Swanage was populated by drop-outs who were not interested in educational success by their children and had the schools to match. The attitude of many teachers at first school here was that it did not matter whether the children did well and you were being pushy if you wanted to now why your little horror was not making more progress. One, at a C of E school told me that what mattered was that they were taught in an atmosphere of christian love. How this was going to help them in a competitive world when they escaped the clutches of first school was not clear.
This is pure speculation but I do wonder whether, when the purbeck pyramid was planned, the senior school was put in Wareham because of awareness of the weakness of Swanage schools and a fear that it would manifest itself in the higher years if there was a senior school here. We have never been privy to th real opinions of "education chiefs" as the papers call them, about what schools are really like.
Things have changed a little. When we were choosing a school in the eary 90s one local first was horrified when I asked for a copy of the latest OFSTED report on them. The head phoned me to as why I wanted it! You were supposed to choose a school with absolutely no hard information on what it was like but rely on gossip and tittle tattle instead.
That's very interesting. There is certainly still a lot of that 'low expectation' attitude among many adults and particularly councillors here.
But now Ofsted shows we have excellent schools and we have a situation where a lot of parents are happy with the primary education and not with the secondary.
Are parents happy because their expectations are low? Schools round here do not see mto set themselves targets, like being in the top 10 percentile. The very idea is regarded as wicked.
Most Middle schools languish near the bottom of the sats league table for Dorset schools. Sandford is about half way, Swanage some way further down, Wareham below and Bovington a few places from the bottom. Only Allenbourn manages a reasonable position. Perhaps it reflects the nature of the catchment but it does suggest they have failed.
I think if you look at recent trends in Swanage and Purbeck you'll see that educationally everything is on the up. I really hope that this local attitude, so prevalant on Swanage View as a whole, that the town isn't much good and it'll never get better is one that is dying out. Negativity breeds failure!
There are lots of us in town who have either moved here because we love the place or moved back because we loved the place. I've done both, and I find myself surrounded by creative, talented people and their children. We've all dropped out to an extent, but we've chosen to bring our families here because it's a wonderful place to live. Many of us operate our own businesses from home. We are ambitious and have high hopes for our children but we value the lifestyle a seaside town like Swanage gives us.
We have an opportunity to do something amazing in Swanage, something that people will look at from outside and want to emulate.
Or we can sit and kick the sand and say 'we're never any good' and just give up.
I want to see us do something amazing in Swanage that makes all of Purbeck better and gives our children aspirations instead of the impression that they live somewhere that has a beach and nothing else.
Collette says
Thank goodness that new people/families with positive attitudes have moved here. What a breath of fresh air. You are an inspiration to us all. Come on people we can do this. Support for a new secondary school in Swanage is growing fast.
It would be great if everyone could focus on the positive and try to avoid negative views getting in the way of what could be a 'progressive 21st C School'.
Are we up for the challenge to create a 'new school' that is worthy of our local children which will in turn encourage a sustainable and thriving community. I would like to think that we are!
Swanage is not at 'the end of the road', more and more local youngsters are returning after completing their degrees and travelling and are now back earning a living, they are appreciating the positive aspects of Purbeck and are living happy, fulfilled lives.
Be happy and positive in Purbeck.
Can someone enlarge on the "sustainablity" aspect of a secondary school in Swanage. What exactly would be sustained?
How do you solve the paradox that since housing here is too expensive for most teachers it would replace half a dozen coaches with 100+ car movements into Swanage. Purbeck School has great difficulty recruiting because of housing costs and it is hard to see how adding 20 miles a day to the commute is an attractive proposition.
Having more families moving here would be good but is there any hard evidence of it? Are there any figures available to support the claim? Like everywhere else we have an influx of returning graduates but that is because there are no jobs for them.
I am interested why you ask this. What do you personally have to lose by having a secondary school here? Can you justify your question?
I don't know why you are looking at this in personal terms. I am not. If you want to convince DCC that they should cut the roll of Purbeck School by several hundred and spend millions on a new school in Swanage you are going to have convincing answers to questions like mine. Things like "it would be nice if we had a school" or "Swanage is the only town of its size in the county without one" cut no ice. I have seen absolutely nothing in this discussion which, if I was a county Councillor which I am not, would persuade me of the case. I would say "you are asking me to wreck a perfectly good school and sack half the staff to provide something half the size ten miles away. Kindly pull the other leg."
Like a lot of people I have been opposed to the draining away of services from Swanage over the years but in this case I think energy should be directed towards ensuring that a new primary school here is not put in the hands of the church.
"you are asking me to wreck a perfectly good school "
Why does it lose so much of its potential intake to neighbouring districts? Why are Wareham St Martin and Bere Regis voting on moving to Lytchett's catchment?
In any case, DCC plan to make it much bigger and put it on two sites in Wareham. We think one of those sites should be where the most children in Purbeck live. There is no reason why two schools cannot form one trust and share curriculum, staff and admin, and in fact all schools will have to share teaching to offer a broader curriculum. We want a modern bespoke system not a 70s supercomp.
"and sack half the staff "
Employ the same or slightly more staff if anything and perhaps move them about rather than the children. There is no problem with recruitment in Swanage schools despite the threat of reorganisation.
"to provide something half the size ten miles away."
It's 10 miles from there but 0 miles from here, where half the children live.
If you like the idea, please ask DCC to look at it seriously.
"Why does it lose so much of its potential intake to neighbouring districts? Why are Wareham St Martin and Bere Regis voting on moving to Lytchett's catchment?"
Thats even less reason for DCC to decide to run it down even more.
10 or 12 years ago Swanage Middle was loosing a lot of potential intake to Wareham and Sandford Middles. For all I know it still does. What conclusion do you draw from that?
I find it interesting the way that the issue of recuitment is raised regarding a school sited in Swanage.
Firstly, the cost of housing in Swanage and environs is high, but not as high as people think. Some houses in Swanage are expensive, but we're not talking about prices out of the reach of teachers. I'm not going to say what I earn, but it's less than a graduate teacher and my house was average price 4 years ago. Relative to the average wage in Swanage most housing is expensive, but many returning and new families are bringing their work with them (working from home, bringing established small businesses) and whenever Swanage schools try to recruit teaching staff they are swamped with applications.
Where does the assumption come from that staff at a school in Swanage would live in Wareham 'adding 20 miles a day to the commute'. Some Purbeck School staff live in Swanage now, for a start, so for them they'd be closer.
I think DCC have a lot more sense than people credit them with (a brave comment, I know) but they are already considering the idea of a school with a campus in each town because it makes sense and will most likely increase the number on roll still further. Read the DCSF document "21st Century Schools" at http://tinyurl.com/bsqx47 and it describes the type of schooling we are talking about.
A lot of the negativity towards any new ideas in Swanage seems to be based on the assumption that nobody really wants to be here. Why on earth would I not want to be here? Apart from if there's no school for my children, of course...
Paul. Where do you get your information that Swanage schools are swamped with applicants when they try to recruit? This simply is not true. Swanage Middle had to readvertise several times for a maths teacher and have received very conservative numbers of applicants for other posts. I believe too, that applications were rather limited for Headteacher posts at three of the first schools inn Swanage.
There is an assumption from you Paul, and others, that a secondary school in Swanage would encourage people to move here. I don't see it myself.
Why does a school draw families to a town or village?
Estate Agents mention it on their websites, as a 'house selling aid' I think this speaks for itself. If it didn't work, they wouldn't bother. Wouldn't it be wonderful if more young families moved here. My mum and dad would welcome them.
This is a positive, refreshing idea for Swanage, Please don't knock it, support it. It could be a great idea. Someone at the Public Meeting mentioned that it was a missed opportunity, not to create a 'new school' on the Swanage Middle School site, I'm sure they will be supporting this idea, as many others in Swanage will be too.
Good luck with your 'Secondary School for Swanage' I hope you are successful.
Hi,
I'm happy to accept that my comments regarding recruitment are only based on what I'm told by the recruiters! I could be wrong!
Headteachers are a different recruitment issue - they are underpaid for the responsibility they take and there is a national problem recruiting First/Primary School Heads - see http://www.independent.co.uk/news/schools-crisis-over-lack-of-headteachers-1197279.html
It is also an assumption, it's true, to state that a secondary would attract more families. Unfortunately you can't prove absolutely that there will be an influx of families if a school were to open, but you can prove that the opposite will happen. At present we are taking a huge gamble with the future economic viability of Swanage by closing the last bit of secondary education.
21st Century Schools is the trailer for the white paper which came out in June.
Both contain the usual pieties about regeneration, cohesion, sustainablity etc but having thus genuflected confine themselves to equally pious statements about what schools should do for their pupils.
I searched in vain for anything even suggesting geographic proximity to children's homes was of the slightest importance.
Incidentally the white paper's section on sport and culture, which are somehow merged in modern government, says pupils should have access to 5 hours of the former a week but makes no stipulation about the latter. Why? Surely civilising our children is as important as having them running and jumping? Why not 5 hours theatre, cinema, debating and art galleries a week? A school that offered that really would be an inducement for people in the creative industries to come and live here.
The Government will not mention proximity because it is at odds with their mantra of choice. Choice is easier than raising standards at all schools. It is choice that means parents drive past five schools to get to their preferred school that is a place or two above another in the league tables.
When I made the remark about the silence of the white paper on distance I thought it was because any suggestion that education should be delivered locally would be taken as a snipe at private schools and boarding schools in particular, however, the parental choice aspect must come into it as well.
The Gov't say that the bus ride to and from school should be no more than 90 mins a day.
A secondary school in Swanage will raise a 'green flag' for sustainable transport!
'As part of the Education and Inspections Act 2006 Dorset County Council has a duty to promote the use of sustainable travel to and from schools.
The most sustainable ways to travel are walking and cycling.
Parents need to start considering the 'Child Miles' involved when choosing a school.
If you live close enough to your school you are far more likely to walk or cycle'
It's the argument DCC have used. 'Some children in North Dorset have to travel 20 miles to Gillingham.' But these are widely dispersed village children heading into the nearest town. There is no way you can build a school near to everyone, but you should build them near to the most children. Wareham is not that place, especially as Sandford will now send their children to Lytchett.
No other town in England, as far as we can gather, has to send all its children anywhere near as far to get schooling and it makes sense to build a school here as there are enough children. There are over 800 children aged 11-16 in Swanage and Langton. That's enough for a decent school (even if you allow as many people to opt out as currently do).
"(even if you allow as many people to opt out as currently do)".
Streuth! Please, do be careful!
I assume that that is just a sloppy bit of thinking/typing.
Parents can send their kids to whichever school will have 'em.
It's called choice, it depends on the size of wallets involved.
That may be the factor that finally sorts this out.
Anonymous (who's definately the busiest post-putter in Swanage!) said "Why not 5 hours theatre, cinema, debating and art galleries a week? A school that offered that really would be an inducement for people in the creative industries to come and live here."
That would be my dream education - I wonder if we could have an adult ed class for that as well!
I also like the confluence of choice and wallet size too. I chose a massive wallet which is perpetually empty...
Sorry, yes sloppy
even if you allow for the fact that as many people may opt out as currently do
Of course there is the possibility that more people will 'opt out' (send their offspring elsewhere but not necessarily to private schools). Not everyone minds their children travelling to Wareham or further afield if they believe the options are better. As a previous poster stated, there are some parents who choose to send their children to Wareham, and even Sandford, Middle School. This could especially be the case if this new school does not turn out to be the panacea that you promote. There is no guarantee that it won't be a poor relation.
If parents have decided to bypass their local school to send their children outside of Purbeck to be educated, how do they know they have chosen a better option.
Many local teachers choose to send their children to Swanage Middle School and then on to Purbeck School, so these schools can't be that bad can they? I don't know how it can be shown that children achieve 'better' either way. We should all have the confidence to send our children to a local secondary and know it will serve them well. If children go to school too far away from their home community, then the downside is that the majority of their friends will live miles away. If parents are happy to spend much of their time driving their children backwards and forwards to Poole or Bournmemouth then thats fine, but wouldn't it be more convenient for them to walk or ride their bikes to meet up with their friends.
What we don't hear about, is the many children that are sent to Grammar School, are unhappy and beg their parents to rejoin their friends at Purbeck School.
We all want the best for our children. Lets work towards making our local schools the best!
No Purbeck School is not that bad and its Ofsted indicates that it's an improving school. As you say, many local teachers send their kids there so why not continue to do so in the future?
I was actually referring to the numbers of people who have historically chosen to bypass Swanage Middle for various reasons. I understand that the middle school is now improving too but sadly it's too late with the authority's decision to axe it. The problem is that if sufficient numbers of people are not concerned about bussing their kids to Purbeck School(with a reasonable track record thus far) or choose to send their kids to Grammar school or elsewhere, will there in all certainty be enough kids in Swanage still to fill a secondary school here?
Personally, I think I would still prefer to send my kids to Purbeck School than a new Swanage Secondary(for various reasons)and I am sure I am not alone.
By the way, there is a bus that takes pupils to Wareham Middlle and the Grammar Schools. Parents do not have to drive them.
It could also be seen as a bonus that children mix with a peer group outside of Swanage. As a child, it was refreshing to make friends with people who lived beyond Corfe. I still had friends who lived in Swanage too. Why would you want to keep within the narrow confines of a seaside town until 18?
1.'I think I would still prefer to send my kids to Purbeck School than a new Swanage Secondary(for various reasons)and I am sure I am not alone.
2.By the way, there is a bus that takes pupils to Wareham Middlle and the Grammar Schools. Parents do not have to drive them.'
Hi,its good to have a friendly debate over this,and your post has opened up further discussions.
1.You say 'you think' that you would prefer to send your chidren to Purbeck rather than a new 'Swanage Secondary', it would be good to know your reasons. There would also be many good reasons to send Swanage children to a good Secondary in Swanage. I think most of them have been covered within the 60 posts.
2.I realise there is a bus to take the children to school in Wareham and the Grammar schools, but why should people feel the need to do this. As you say, Swanage Middle School has been improving, and Dave Pratten has shown amazing leadership. Parents of current Swanage Middle School children will support this claim. I wonder if some people are fearing the unknown. If there are good,leaders with vision then it will be possible to create a strong, vibrant local Secondary School.
It is understandable that all parents want the best for their children. If DCC give the Swanage the opportunity to have a Secondary in Swanage, we would play a part in making sure that it will be 'the best school for our local children'.
There are many people with young children that think that this can happen. If there is a good school on our doorstep, why would we transport our children past its doors?
Point 1. As the first poster (9.02 pm) put it "socially, thank God for Purbeck". I also don't believe that there would be sufficient impetus (or hard cash)from DCC to ensure that a new Secondary would provide better quality education. I know you will argue that point, but it is my opinion.
Point 2. I don't dispute that Dave Pratten is doing a good job but he will be retiring by the time a new school is built (or should I say 'if' it is). As a previous poster stated, Headteacher recruitment is difficult Nationally and even more so in Dorset. It will need a determined Headteacher with a strong belief in the type of school that you are aiming for to make this plan work. I'm sure there will be someone, somewhere who could do the job but they won't get paid as much as the Head of a larger school, thus limiting the potential pool of applicants.
You say " If there is a good school on our doorstep, why would we transport our children past its doors?" This is a big IF. I am not trying to be overtly negative but I do think that this needs more thought.
There is already a 'good school' (in Ofsted terms) in Wareham, which is not that far away. Many of us (and our children)were educated there, survived the bus journeys and made friends who live outside of Swanage. Socially, I believe that this was a benefit. I know that Wareham is not the 'wider' world but at least we got to socialise with more than the 90 kids in our 'Swanage' peer group. There are fewer than 90 in the year groups moving through Swanage Middle now.
Finally, if DCC are closing the Middle Schools because of falling roles and a cash strapped education department, why on earth would they spend millions creating a new Secondary school? Surely the money would be better spent improving Primary School provision in the area?
Maybe none of this will happen anyway. There is no money, the government have finally admitted that we are in a deeper recession than they first thought. No surprise there then.
Perhaps the ideal is to keep the 3 tier in the Swanage area, with a few little tweaks here and there.
If they weren't trying to close the Middle Schools down, then this discussion wouldn't have arisen.
I'm off to the beach!
5.56pm says "Estate Agents mention it on their websites, as a 'house selling aid' I think this speaks for itself. If it didn't work, they wouldn't bother. Wouldn't it be wonderful if more young families moved here."
The thing is, I moved here with my kids knowing that there was not a secondary school in Swanage and that they would have to get on a bus to Wareham. So did Paul, Carl and many others. The lack of a secondary school here did not put me off. Yes the kids would be transferring to Purbeck at 13 after middle school but I don't honestly think that going 2 years earlier would harm them. Children all over the country travel to secondary schools by bus at 11 and in hindsight I think my eldest child would have benefitted from attending Purbeck earlier.
Hello, Carl here. Not sure who you are but you seem to know me. So you'll know the reason we moved here was because Swanage had outstanding first schools you could actually get into.
Everyone we spoke to said the first schools were great, the middle school was improving and the Purbeck was all right and didn't fail their children.
The group (which by the way contains people who have been here all their lives) see this as a chance to look at education at all ages. But it is not suggesting change for the sake of it. DCC are making the changes. The Purbeck is going to increase in size by 40 per cent and be split over two sites. This may be a good thing, it may not, but we think it is worth getting experts and parents to look at all the options closely to see if there are better solutions.
Sorry Carl, I don't really know you but I am aware that you moved to Swanage and since there is no secondary school here I assumed that you must have known this before you settled here (as I did). Please accept my apologies if I have made an incorrect assumption.
Hi, Carl again. No need to apologise, was just curious who you were.
And you are quite right that I knew the situation with the buses to Wareham. My view was that it wasn't ideal but the upper school bit seemed a long way off - eight years - while choosing a good first school was urgent.
Now the bussing will start two years earlier, and I do think that makes a difference. Would we have been as keen on the first school? Hard to say, as we love living here and have all made a lot of friends.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer a school here if it were possible. Or that a secondary school wouldn't attract even more people to the town - those who plan a bit further ahead or who have older children.
There is alot of talk about 'moving here'. Many people have also lived here all of their lives.
These people have seen many changes. Many of these changes have been out of the control of local people. These changes have been forced upon the community and have often been in conflict with local wishes. Maybe people are beginning to think and understand that small is better, that local is good, and thinking about all the huge benefits that this could bring. How can it be a good thing to bus all the children out of Swanage from 11 years up and transport them
to Wareham. It seems to go against all the more recent thinking that schools have been trying to encourage eg. for children to walk or cycle, to have a positive link with their environment and community. Healthy children, Healthy schools.
Swanage people have been involved in Education changes in the past, as most people are aware there were two secondary schools, the Swanage Secondary Modern and the Grammar School. I'm sure the people of Swanage did not see the loss of secondary education in the 70's as being a positive way forward for Swanage children. Swanage is just trying to get back what has been lost, but it could be better than before and could build on the strengths and good reputation that the Middle School already has. It would be a good thing to move forward with this positive idea.
As someone who grew up here and sent my kids to school here, I would prefer for them to go to Purbeck School in Wareham if building a new secondary school in Swanage in this current economic climate means that the first/primary schools are going to be cash starved even more than they are already. I see this as inevitable as Dorset LEA is one of the poorest funded in the country and there is limited money to stretch between all of the schools. It is not just the cost of building the new school but the ongoing running costs. I fear Peter will be robbed to pay for Paul. The entire situation arose because the schools in Swanage are already in dire financial straights. How will creating a new school help the first schools (to become primaries) continue to provide the youngest children with an excellent education? They are the building blocks that prepare the kids for secondary schooling. If they collapse then the whole plan will be worthless.
We should all be writing to Gordon Brown and campaigning for Dorset children to receive more funding.
Can anyone provide a link that shows clearly that we are at the bottom for funding. Are DCC and PDC on to this.
It is not a new situation. In the back of my 1960s Readers Digest Atlas of the British Isles is a set of tables with stats about local authorities which shows Devon and Dorset at the bottom of the pile. Nothing has changed since, although there were rumours that back in the 60s DCC diverted money from its education budget to road building.
If you want to know the current situation you can try asking Google for education authority spending per pupil.
We seem to have rather got away from the important issue here - what will provide the best education for the tax payers of the future!
DCC is poorly funded, as Dorset South and North has had MP's of 3 differing shades for quite sometime I think that it's fair to accept that DCC's funding will remain poor.
DCC have 2 Secondary Schools to maintain in PDC - as opposed to the IoP! Lychett has always been a good school, Purbeck has finally become one.
Does anyone really believe that DCC can afford a third?
So far as I can see, 3 Primaries are going to become 2. Where?
3 tier is going to become 2 tier. The short term overflow will be schooled at Wareham Middle. If, as predicted, our roll comtinues to drop then Wareham Middle will close. Purbeck will continue having to spend it's limited resources as efficiently as possible.
I'm sure that DCC would love to have small, personalised, efficient schools, but it aint gunna happen, simply because DCC can't afford it.
What you need to concentrate on is ensuring that whatever system we end up with, your kids get the best possible education they can, working within the ridiculous financial constraints imposed from above.
PS
I'm lucky, I don't have kids!
Absolutely. And since DCC will not be able to afford a third secondary, all of the efforts and resources could be better channelled into making sure that we continue to have good primary school provision in Swanage.
As I see it, the Purbeck Review has given us the opportunity to look again at what the future primary provision in Swanage could look like. I don't remember them saying anything about secondary schooling. There is a very real danger that focusing on trying to persuade DCC(yet very unlikely to succeed in doing so) to give Swanage a secondary school will muddy the waters, divert attention from where it is needed and give carte blanche to do what they will with our first schools.
Yeah, you're right as far as you go, but it's also a chance to get involved with the Purbeck School to ensure that the future is as good as can be.
We have at least 2 Swanage Primary School Governors posting on here, how much - if any - influence do you have on/in the Purbeck pyramid. Its crucial to our education system.
Yours
6.14
It seems there has been a lot in the news lately, the government are finally coming around to the idea that small is better, and that it is more efficient to run smaller effective hubs concentrating on quality. Localisation and not centralisation. Give up some of the 80's traditions and return to common sense. Its being proven all over the country that smaller schools can work and can be better than industrialised 'factory' education. Do we want to produce a human being or a machine??
"Do we want to produce a human being or a machine??"
This must rank as the daftest comment in the thread. Do you know any Purbeck School students, past or present? I cant say I have ever noticed any sign of mechanicalness in my sons who went there or their friends. Do you know anything about how Purbeck is organised?
Its management have always been aware of the problems that can result from a large school and have in great measure overcome them
Purbeck School is divided into two year halves which are taught separately. The two may mix socially but educationally it is as if they were at two schools of half the size, except of course that they have the resources of a large school.
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how their personalities would be different if the school had been half the size.
There are secondary schools of a range of sizes in Dorset, again can you point to any measurable differences between the pupils which correlates with the size of the schools?
Oddly enough Purbeck has very much the same number of students as Eton. I have yet to see a claim that the latter somehow mechanises its children or that it is too large.
Do you think it is a wise decision to transport hundreds more children from one town to another.
Or would it be better to create a school for the Swanage area so that children could have the opportunity to walk or cycle.
Ideally yes but in practice I think the money which would go into reducing Purbeck school to 800 and creating a similar sized school in Swanage could be better spent. I do not think that a half hour bus ride is any great shakes. Children from 11 take this in their stride all over the country. I know there are always problems with kids misbehaving on the buses but I found mine either transferred to other buses or found it rather amusing. Oddly enough the shy sensitive one took it in his stride but the rather bombastic specimen was less tolerant of idiots.
At Purbeck they made friends with children from all over the district and they have kept in touch with them since so I do think their lives would have been somewhat diminished if they had attended a school which only served Swanage and the nearby villages.
A century ago by all accounts there was rivalry between the young of Herston and Swanage. By the 60s it was Wareham and Swanage. I think attending a school which serves a wide area reduces this and it a good thing and the travel is a price worth paying.
Does it help if we take a holistic approach with this?
Local School
Healthy Children-can walk or cycle
Smaller school- more children able to take part and represent Swanagee with sports, arts, projects etc.
Support for school - parental and community involvement - voluntary help.
children schooled in their own community, take part in having a say within own community-links with their own town.
Environment-reduced CO2-less transporting of children from one community to another, relieve traffic congestion. Swanage is a larger town than Wareham.
Future-encourage thriving town,Swanage needs to continue to attract young families.
Sustainability- price of fuel may increase(dramatically) within next few years- will the costs of transport fall back on the parents or community in council tax? Remember when Purbeck first opened all children were promised free transport. Reality- A level students pay for transport.
Wonderful resources on the doorstep-Leeson, Durlston, arts tourism, geography- most reachable on foot.
Create Adult Education and increase local facilities ?? Swanage sports. Community and School share.
9.19
There is a rumour that they are going to flatten Purbeck School begin again and the children may be educated on a split site ie Wareham Middle site and Purbeck Site in Portacabins-if this is the case- then if may help to relieve some of the pressures Wareham end if there is a secondary in Swanage.
Perhaps someone could enlighten.
Post 4.59.
Yes I think it would very much help if we took a holistic approach to this, but what saddens and surprises me in this whole 80 comment debate, is that 'holistic debate' does not seem to include any educational reasoning...when after all we are talking about a school!
There are many positives for extending secondary education to Swanage in terms of community links and environmental awareness. That is undeniable.
What I find a bit surprising, is those heavily in favour of the idea, seem to be using the busses, and the travel as the most important factor in the whole debate.
Children need equality of opportunity. They need equal access to the best specialist facilities, the highest quality specialist teaching, the broadest curriculum through the widest possible choice of subject and course specialisms. We are talking about a massive new curriculum, to promote both practical vocational skills and trades and high academic aspirations.
How would these concerns be addressed?
The issue is not, whether it would be nice to keep our children close at hand, with less travelling, but what will provide them with the very best educational opportunities in a time when we hear that success is more than ever weighted towards 'privileged' kids who have attended private schools. To give them the best possible choices for their future.
How would breadth of curriculum and timetabling be addressed for minority subjects and specialist courses? How would we provide the best teaching, the best facilities, the impetus for children in Swanage to branch out, and move on? How would DCC fund another secondary when it can't even find the funding for its original plan, leaving first schools inadequate to house primaries, and an area secondary already in need of major upgrading.
Any school in our area can take advantage of all our wonderful natural / artisitic / skills-based resources in Purbeck. Swanage does not have a monopoly on that. Community links may be, and are, fostered with a wider community than the immediate area around your house.
There is much talk about Swanage becoming unsustainable without secondary education, as families would be put off moving here.
Wouldn't a potentially academically and socially limiting small secondary be a real disincentive? I think it would to many people already living here.
These are questions which would seem to be deeply more fundamental than the question of busses.
If there are answers to these questions, then count me in!
Let's start talking about education...
Perhaps someone could tell us of the ways Purbeck School is involved in the community in Wareham so we know what Swanage is missing.
Good point, Anonymous 10.51 - yes the educational issues are paramount and it's these that a group of us have been discussing with a number of educational specialists and we'll be working hard on this throughout the initial Options Forum debates starting in September.
The fact is that our response to the loss of Swanage middle school was initially based on the effect of this on the town, looking mostly at community and transport issues, and then we have to look at how education can be extended in Swanage. At first we weren't sure that we could argue against DCC's arguments against a school in Swanage, but educationalists we've spoken to have questioned their accuracy. I personally think that they probably are sound arguments against a standalone school in Swanage, but educationally there is very strong evidence to show that a single school spread over two campuses would not only be as good but would be better that one school in Wareham could be.
The cost is a toughy. If the council can get any money at all (which is the big question hanging over the whole project) then it could be split into two facilities but they would have to spend very carefully and there isn't a good track record there. It could be done though. Money for Primaries comes from a separate pot, so improvements to the first schools shouldn't be affected.
Education doesn't stop at 11 and so all aspects of this need to investigated thoroughly, and so far this hasn't been shown to be done by anyone.
I hope that soon the group of us who are investigating this seriously will be able to confidently release the info we have - we're nearly there! We'll put a link to a website on swanage view so that all aspects can be debated intelligently and hopefully we'll form a movement for education that can include everyone.
Just read back through some earlier posts - wish I hadn't as I was hoping to get some work finished!
Firstly, like Carl, when I moved here all the way from Bournemouth it was because I've always loved Swanage but also because the first schools were all good. When your eldest child is just 3, 13 is a long way away, and at 13 I still think it's dumb to commute to school but I assumed my kids would be old enough to look after themselves. 11 is too young to be commuting, for a vast number of reasons.
Lots of people here also seem to think that it's normal to live in a town with no school and that it's normal to travel half an hour each way to school. It's not. It is if you live in a village, perhaps, or if your parents want you to go to a school outside your catchment area, but we live in a town, quite a big one. It's far from normal! It's not going to damage our children in some terrible way to do it, but it isn't going to help them either.
Imagine Swanage had a comprehensive school like every other town in Dorset. Would people think it was normal then to send their kids to the town 10 miles away? It would be interesting to know how many people in Lyme Regis, for example, send their children to school in Bridport.
Poole Grammar take kids on at year 8, so they're aged 12.
How many Swanage kids go there? Or to Parkstone, or Uplands?
I work in Poole and go over the ferry, one of our local GP's wifes 'delivers' their kid to the ferry and is picked up by a School bus on the other side. When I had to use Public transport, imagine how surprised I was to see the son of another of our GP's on the bus. He doesn't half look like his Dad, poor sod.
Too young, not at all sure.
In evolutionary/physical terms if 11yr old's could travel by bus/train 30 years ago then they still can. Bear in mind, those who took the train then had to walk up to the Grammar. Anyone who lived within 3 miles of the Grammar had no school transport, we walked and/or cycled. I cycled, cuz after school I went and delivered the Echo for Pat Dorland RIP.
Yes, I do know that 12 year old's used to clean chimneys, and be fantastic at mining Purbeck stone, they still would be, but thankfully Society has changed. What is too much change?
Anyway, the 'fact' that 11 year olds are too young to travel for 30mins on a bus is a Societal issue.
If we went tree climbing and fell and cut ourselves, then our parents would look us up and down - to check that we weren't in danger - and then say "serves you right".
Yeah, it did, we learnt how to take risks and responsibility for our actions.
Attitudes - speed cameras - if they ever catch me, then hands up, I'll pay the fine, cuz I've been caught acting illegally. Luckily they haven't got me yet!
People who move to Swanage tend to do so for reasons such as;.
“Firstly, like Carl, when I moved here all the way from Bournemouth it was because I've always loved Swanage......”
And didn't love B'mouth, even tho' it's got some very good Schools/Cinemas/Restaurants/Art Galleries/Shops/Markets/........... Societal again, the 'rural idyll'?
Those of us who had their formative years in the rural idyll and then lived in Cities, before returning to …., know that the rural idyll is a bunch of c$%p.
The RI is 'safe', and much more personal, in Cities people won't talk behind your back cuz they don't care who you are. In the RI, where much less happens people will talk behind your back and if they don't know the facts they'll make 'em up. (That's not a comment about Swanage, it's about the RI, of which Swanage is a tiny tiny part).
Another thought, the weekly team meeting, let's say that it's on Thursday.
Eight o'clock – Teacher arrives at work, blah, blah.
Three 30 – skool ends.
Four o'clock – things, inc students, tidied away.
Got to allow at least 30mins for the drive to Purbeck/Swanage, then 10 mins before the Team meeting.
So at 5.15/30 the Team meeting finishes, all staff jump into their cars and go home.
OK, staff, let's take a vote.
Yeah, yeah, I know, I used to work for 25 hrs a day 8 days a …...
Seriously (!) now, many of the staff team will have to work across sites, are all those 'cross site transports', which will mainly be one person in one car acceptable?
50 people on one bus produce much less carbon (per capita) than one person in one car.
AND, Teachers can't afford to but a decent house around here.
Streuth, bathtime.
So what was it that you actually said 6.43 ??
Dear 2.10
mebbie I was saying nothing of value. Mebbie I was just raising some issues that I consider to be worth discussing.
Mebbie they're not.
Would the contributors of Swanage View like to engage in a personal dialogue rather than an anonymous argument?
I've been doing a bit of research amongst some of the Swanage youth by asking my offspring and several of their friends (also by talking to my friends about their children's views). It seems that there's quite a strong consensus between those teenagers I've spoken to against the idea of going to a secondary school in Swanage. They'd rather travel to Wareham it seems. I do think that this is significant and the voice of the Swanage youth should be sought. Teenagers usually have their own perspective on issues.
How would anyone know what a school in Swanage would or could be like, it hasn't been created yet.
We may be forgetting that the children won't be going to Purbeck at the age of 13. They will be going at age 11, and directly from a small intimate school. Three tier works perfectly fine for Purbeck. First school, a small school, second school a medium school and third school a large school. Fine and agree that age 13 up cope just about ok with a school the size of Purbeck.
Not sure what would be the best aged chilren to ask about this. Those that have left, are relieved, those that are at Purbeck are already in the present system, and the younger children wouldn't really know what would be best.
Take a risk..... Ask them!
How will u know what young people think unless you ask?
Don't then try to write off their responses as invalid.
That's DCC's trick
I agree - ask them. BTW my son would have gladly gone to Purbeck at least a year earlier. I know because he use to tell me so. His mates from another area were already at secondary school and he thought year 8 at middle school was a waste of time.
Obviously if you ask the older kids what they think, their opinions will be biased by their experiences, but aren't everyones? They still have an opinion that counts and they know better than anyone what it's like in KS3 both at middle schools and at Purbeck. What are you afraid of?
Right near the beginning of this thread at about post number 17 (10.07) somebody started to raise some educational points and, I believe some very important issues about equality of access to subject teaching and resources. Then some 50 plus posts later someone said "Lets start talking about education". However, the proponents of the new secondary school repeatedly skirt around educational isues.
Could we please hear some answers to the questions posed by 10.51?
I quote:
"How would breadth of curriculum and timetabling be addressed for minority subjects and specialist courses? How would we provide the best teaching, the best facilities, the impetus for children in Swanage to branch out, and move on? How would DCC fund another secondary when it can't even find the funding for its original plan, leaving first schools inadequate to house primaries, and an area secondary already in need of major upgrading?"
I would like to add to this list:
How would the school provide challenge for its most able students?
Would there, for example, be sufficient numbers of pupils wishing to take third Science at GCSE when the trend is for the majority to take double or applied? or would this option only be available at Wareham? With only a handful of students in certain classes, is it really a viable option for them to be educated on two different sites? Do they not need the opportunity to have intellectual sparring and idea sharing with other likeminded students? By significantly reducing the number of pupils in their year groups both in Wareham and Swanage, will you not be denying them educational opportunities? Will this not result in more parents seeking places at Grammar schools where there could be a wider choice?
Anonymously, would 'Anonymous 9.46 am' like to engage in a 'personal dialogue' rather than anonymously criticizing anonymous people engaging in an anonymous debate?!!
Isn't the point, that anonymously, people may be honest without fear of reprisal? Nobody on this thread appears to be ranting, but rather having an (albeit anonymous) dialogue.
Anon.
Carl here again. I'm not an education expert, just a parent, so I can't answer exactly how the curriculum would work.
I have been looking at the Ofsted reports for smaller schools. There are 270-odd 11-16/18 secondary schools in England with under 600 pupils. Ofsted did not have a list matching schools sizes to inspection grades but I've gone through 104 of the schools individually so far.
Of those 104:
2 are rated Inadequate
42 are Satisfactory (10 of which have a good curriculum)
43 are Good (of which 4 have an outstanding curriculum and 5 have a satisfactory curriculum)
17 are Outstanding (16 of which have an outstanding curriculum and one has a good curriculum)
A third of the Satisfactory schools so far are not really small schools. They have more than 30 per cent surplus places and have become small because parents are deserting them. Almost all are scheduled to close and have stopped taking younger years.
Some are struggling because they have high numbers of SEN pupils, or are in deprived areas, or three-quarters of the intake are from ethnic minorities. Then again, some of the good and outstanding schools have similar intakes and do brilliantly. It depends on the staff.
As for stretching pupils, I read that at one Outstanding school they provide three sciences because gifted pupils take GCSEs a year earlier and can take other subjects the next year. Others work closely with pupils all the way through to tailor-make the education and provide the right choices.
Some schools are smaller because they are faith schools. Of the 274 schools on my list, 21 are CofE, 26 are Catholic, 3 are CofE/Catholic, 4 are Jewish, 4 are Muslim, 1 is Sikh and 1 is Seventh Day Adventist (and has a notice to improve.
19 of the 274 small schools are in a federation with at least one other local school. The rest are standalone secondaries. All the good and outstanding schools were praised for their links with other schools, businesses and colleges, as were a lot of satisfactory schools in deprived areas who tended to have more vocational options.
In short, there are good and bad small schools, just as there are good and bad large schools.
Educationally, so far I can't see anything to suggest that small schools are necessarily at a disadvantage and Ofsted praises these schools again and again for the personal care and support they give.
Interesting research Carl and certainly worth looking into. Could you posibly provide us with a list of names of the outstanding secondary schools together with those which are good and have an outstanding curriculum? It would be useful for us to read some examples of successful educational practice in small schools.
Also, do you have the percentage of small schools that are rated as good and satisfactory (and inadequate)in comparison with the percentage of larger schools?
I can't help thinking that praising "support" is a sort of OFSTED consolation prize or a coded way of saying that although the children do not learn much the staff were well meaning.
My experience, as a parent, of a small c of e first school was that it had just about zero expectations of its pupils and employed an ideology of "christian love" to divert attention from its lack of academic achievement. Middle school teachers then tried very hard to correct its failings but often with little success giving Purbeck one year before gcse courses began to bring them up to scratch. The reading age of many arriving at SMS left a great deal to be desired. Our experience was unambiguously that bigger was better at each stage.
No doubt it depends on what you want your child to get out of a school. There is always an element who think that small first schools are a substitute for the private school they would prefer but cannot afford. That was very much the message we got from some parents about Mount Scar in the early 90s although this was more of an endorsement of the severity of the regime than praise for the amount of learning that went on.
I moved back to Swanage about 20 years ago and foolishly thought that the c of e label meant as little here as it did in London. Having subjected my children to an establishment that took religious performance seriously I think avoiding giving the various holy joes a monopoly of primary education is far more important than the address of the secondary school.
Tuesday 22nd January Mike Baker The Guardian
However, there was much else that was positive for small schools. Ofsted argued "the quality of teaching in small schools is generally better than in larger schools". Inspectors concluded that their "positive ethos" and "important place in the community" meant there was "a good case" for small schools. In short, they tick all the Every Child Matters boxes…..
The crucial factor in 2008, though, could be that the political debate is turning from a focus on results towards greater concern about social cohesion, child welfare, mental health and poverty. And the case for children's welfare at small schools is very strong…
As Ofsted reported, small schools have a positive ethos that fosters "a family atmosphere", "good standards of behaviour" and "close links with parents and the community". That sounds like a recipe for solving many current problems, not only in rural areas but also, perhaps especially, in urban areas too…
Don't worry Carl about the last request, I have just located the information. Here's the link for anyone who's interested:
http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/Ofsted-home/Publications-and-research/Browse-all-by/Annual-Report/2007-08/Inspection-judgements-2007-08-for-maintained-schools
You will need to download the section 5 charts and tables and look at the secondary school inspection judgements excell.
There is some interesting data if you look under the secondary by size tab. I think the graphs are particularly useful.
Overall effectiveness of schools inspected with 651-875 pupils:17% outstanding, 39% good, 37% satisfactory and 7% inadequate
(the picture is not as good for schools with fewer than 650 pupils with 11% inadequate and 10% outstanding)
Effectiveness of schools with over 1300 pupils (as Purbeck would be) 24% outstanding, 41% good, 27% satisfactory and 8% inadequate.
What I find particularly interesting (and somewhat surprising) is that the very large schools look better than the small schools in terms of personal development and well-being too. Schools with 651- 875 pupils were graded in this aspect as follows:
outstanding 27%, good 51%, satisfactory 21% (none inadequate).
However, 38% of schools with over 1300 pupils were graded as outstanding in terms of personal development and well-being. 42% were good and just 19% satisfactory (again none inadequate).
Quality of provision next.
651- 875 pupils: 10% outstanding, 47% good, 40% satisfactory, 3% inadequate.
1300+ pupils: 11% outstanding, 56% good, 29% satisfactory, 4% inadequate.
As I said, interesting reading.
12.00
Hello Debbie
From Purbeck School ofsted report:
'The Purbeck is a good school. It now has a number of outstanding features. These include the care, guidance and support which it provides for its students, and its extensive network of partnerships that enhance the school's curriculum and also benefit the wider community.'
Thomas Hardye School Number on roll: 2340, deemed oustanding in all aspects. 'Despite being so large, the school still manages to be personal' Ofsted 2007. It is possible.
I am not familiar with Purbeck school,and am personally trying to way up the pros and cons of whether to support a Swanage Secondary.
Are you able to explain what support the Purbeck school provides for its students, and what is included in its extensive network of partnerships? Could you give me examples of how Purbeck School benefits the wider community (presumably that of Wareham).
Thank you.
Carl again, thanks for the link to the graphs. I had looked at those but having spoken to Ofsted the data is not quite representative of 11-16/18 schools because it includes middles schools deemed secondary and upper schools and some tiny colleges.
The reason it's good to go through the reports individually is because it shows many of the failing small schools are actually big bad schools deserted by parents that are soon closing. Conversely, the best schools also tend to become bigger, ie Thomas Hardye.
Even if you don't take that into account, I'd say the graphs show that there isn't all that much difference between sizes. The standard depends on the quality of the staff and the catchment area, not the size.
I would also argue that it seems better to let the market decide the size of a school - ie parents choosing a good school over a bad school - than to make a school bigger by delivering more kids there in the hope that it will maintain standards (or improve them as we were originally promised).
Purbeck and Lytchett are now both good schools according to Ofsted. Yet Purbeck School has around an 85 per cent cohort survival rate (how many pupils stay with catchment school), compared to Lytchett's 130 percent cohort survival rate. This means two or three classes worth of Purbeck pupils are choosing a school other than Purbeck while Lytchett is actively attracting extra pupils. There are cases of pupils choosing Purbeck of course but the general trend is from Purbeck to Lytchett and others.
If you have already seen the data posted by 12.12am Carl, why then did you write "Ofsted did not have a list matching schools sizes to inspection grades"? Is that not what the graphs are showing?
Cor you do like to make some sweeping statements Carl. Could you please back up some of your assertions with evidence and give us some indication as to how you are able to discuss these issues with Ofsted personally? I'd like to ask them a few questions myself.
You write "it shows many of the failing small schools are actually big bad schools deserted by parents that are soon closing.
Does it really say". Do Ofsted really say this in their reports?
Where do you get your information that "Purbeck School has around an 85 per cent cohort survival rate (how many pupils stay with catchment school), compared to Lytchett's 130 percent cohort survival rate. This means two or three classes worth of Purbeck pupils are choosing a school other than Purbeck while Lytchett is actively attracting extra pupils."?
Do you really think that publicly damming Purbeck School in such a way ( I have no idea whether your figures are accurate)will help to build a positive relationship with the leaders of Purbeck School and to ensure the success of satellite of the school in Swanage? I thought that this is one of the options your group was looking at.
Carl here. I try not to make sweeping statements.
Ofsted's graphs are compiled using the 2008 School census. You can phone Ofsted. The man there told me they include all secondaries - comps, grammars, moderns, middles, high schools, colleges just for 14-18s etc. If you search for Ofsted reports of local secondaries in Swanage, the nearest is our middle school. I've been trying to look at raw data rather than lump all schools together. For instance small grammars are often good or outstanding but I don't think it's fair to compare them as the Purbeck isn't selective.
The Ofsted reports themselves often say whether a school is popular/oversubscribed or loses out to selective schools etc. I also have a list of all schools from Edubase showing which schools are scheduled to close, merge. federate - and the school's capacity and actual number on roll. It's also possible to Google each school to find out what local councils and newspapers say and I have spent some time doing so.
I am not damming Purbeck School. By all accounts it is a good school and improving further still. My point was that, given that parent choices affect school sizes, it may be better to attract parents to a school than force children to go there. One way to do this may be to have a campus in the local community so parents feel more involved.
I quoted cohort survival figures from DCC that show Purbeck is not as popular as it could be. It loses pupils to Lytchett, Poole and Bournemouth and independents. It also gets a few pupils from other catchments but overall there is a net loss.
Dorset's school database is here http://www1.dorsetforyou.com/Learning/SIS.nsf/Home?ReadForm
There are cohort survival rates and projected figures for each school - click on the stats button and then download the Excel doc.
DCC's stats department sent me Jan 2009 figures showing which Dorset schools pupils head for - I have not yet received figures for Poole and Bournemouth but the local Sustainable Transport Officer says there are a few and we all know of examples.
43 pupils from outside catchment go to Purbeck. 235 from Purbeck pyramid go to other secondaries - as I say, this does not include Poole and Bournemouth.
204 go to Lytchett, 29 to Thomas Hardye and 2 to Budmouth.
60 pupils opt for Lytchett each year and they are now taking 66 by boosting class sizes to 33.
It's not just secondary age pupils, 46 primary age pupils and 49 SEN pupils go elsewhere.
There is a rate of cohort survival rate of 88 for Purbeck but this is just at high school transfer age. There is also a drop of about 5 percent in middle schools as pupils leave at 11-12 (I am presuming to go to secondaries. There's an 8 per cent drop at Sandford middle at this age even though very popular).
I think it would be good for DCC to address the problem of why the current system is not as popular as it could be as it does have a serious effect on numbers. One way may be to have a local campus that the community can be involved with. Our group wants DCC to look at the broader picture.
Re 9.17 I can't answer your questions because I just lifted the quote from their ofsted report. Perhaps someone who works (or has worked) at Purbeck School could help. I believe that one of the members of the Education Swanage group is an ex-Purbeck School teacher. Perhaps they could shed some light on the way that it works.
I think the 5% drop out at 11-12 can be attributed (in part at least) to children transferring to Grammar schools as they take them at the end of Year 7 (not Year 8 as Purbeck does).
So does loss of pupils from Purbeck school's catchement area show that parents are happy to send their children further afield? I wonder what percentage of those children come from Wareham/Sandford/Bere Regis area and how many come from Swanage? This is an important question because if only a small proportion are from Swanage, building a seondary school here will not necessarily solve the problem and it won't necessarily prevent those parents who want a grammar/private school education for their children from continuing to seek it.
I agree that it would be good for DCC to address the problem of why the current system is not as popular as it could be. I'm just not convinced that building a new school will be the (very expensive)answer.
I don't know if the figures about 'cohort survival rates' are accurate but....
I think it would be interesting to investigate the reasons why young people choose to move away from Purbeck School, and at what age. I think there are some dangerous assumptions being made here, including that a 'campus' in Swanage would help to stop this.
Some parents choose to send their children further afield. This may be for a variety of reasons. Therefore distance is not a big barrier for these families - and therefore proximity may not be the 'draw' you anticipate.
Some families choose a grammar school education. They are very unlikely to change their mind because of a secondary campus in town.
Some young people choose to leave Purbeck for many reasons, at age 16. It is not clear from the tables you link to, what proportion this is. It would be interesting to find this out, as the number of 6th formers would not affect a Swanage campus, which would run from 11 - 16 years. Again, there are a number of reasons you hear of, although you would have to survey young people, as these are anecdotal. However, they include, wanting a more mature (college) environment, choosing courses not on offer at Purbeck - vocational courses, media, leisure and arts based diplomas (like the Art Foundation Course at AI,B), subject combinations, some modern languages etc, choosing Lytchett as it is a specialist Arts centre (rather than Science college), and .... needing to stretch their wings! They may be for simple social reasons, like finding a more like-minded peer group (a common reason for kids leaving school to go to college).
Why do you assume that having a small neighbourhood secondary school / campus would negate any of these reasons? It could compound them, leaving unsustainably small numbers.
Are all contributors to this blog aware that Dorset has yet to submit its 'readiness to deliver' statement which is required to bring them forward in the Building Schools for the Future programme?
Without this money, they will find it difficult to make the required extensions to Purbeck School, let alone build a new secondary school in Swanage. The deadline for submissions to the Government is 17th September.
"Currently, Dorset features in waves 13-15 (of 15 waves) of the BSF programme and do not expect to receive funding before 2015".
http://www.dorsetforyou.com/index.jsp?articleid=389120
I seem to remember reading that funding is only guaranteed 'til 2011.
That's why Dorset applied to be brought forward into an earlier wave group. The trouble is that because they have yet to produce their readiness to deliver statement, they do not know whether they will be successful in their bid. The uncertainty is such that they are planning to borrow the money to cover the expansion of Purbeck School in the eventuality that BSF funds are not forthcoming. With a general election on the horizon and in the current economic climate, I suggest that this is extremely unwise.
The point is that if the ability to cover the cost of the required building works at Purbeck School is so uncertain, how on earth can DCC commit to building (or even refurbishing Swanage Middle School)a new secondary in Swanage?
Imagine a business acting like that...!
"We haven't really got the money. And we don't know when or if we are going to get it. We did promise you some savings, to benefit yr kids, but now we might use that to pay interest on a huge loan - it won't cover the loan of course, but hey!
Oh and by the way, we said it would cost 70 million before, but now we're saying between 30 and 100 million. Not quite sure how much! We don't really know because we only did the costings from behind a desk in Dorchester"
And that is just with the bare minimum. Quite seriously, how can anyone in their right mind be asked to buy into this idea? It's not that we don't want investment in schools in Purbeck, but the County Council have got to start being honest about what they've got, and what they can really do.
Let's not let them half do the job, leaving kids in portakabins because it's all gone Pete Tong.
In addition to that,DCC are in the process of sending their statement that shows they are ready to deliver to DCSF as we speak. This has to be received by the end of September. Presumably this statement is based on their plans to expand Purbeck School and to refurbish a couple of other Dorset secondaries. They cannot include the contruction of a new secondary school for Swanage in this bid because the consultation has not been concluded. Therefore they cannot ask for money to cover the cost of a new building.
I would take this as a pretty strong indication that (even should they think it's a good idea, which they've already said they don't) a new Swanage Secondary is not even on the DCC radar. It's a pie in the sky plan.
A tranche of forty Local Authorities were invited to make a "Readiness to Deliver" submission by the 8th May 2009. Of those that did only Hampshire, Barnet, Bolton, Peterborough, Wigan and Sunderland were successful. In early August 2009 the Authorities who had been unsuccessful, as well as the Authorities who had delayed making a submission, were advised that all submissions for the remaining twelve places to be allocated during the financial year ending on the 31st March 2010 were to be made by 17th September 2009.
So 6 out of 70 authorities were successful in their bids to join BSF for the first time in May. That leaves 64 remaining authorities competing for ?many places? Lets assume there are another 6 to 10 places available. That means Dorset has about a 9 to 15 % chance of winning their bid. I'm not a gambler. Is that good odds??
If the cohort survival rate is inversely proportional to the school's distance from Swanage, as appears to be the case from the figures quoted, then a school in Swanage can expect to loose even more pupils. I don't think that was the inference we were expected to make but its where the numbers point.
Perhaps we could concentrate on improving the first/primary schools and the support they give their pupils. Is it still the case that extra help with reading is not forthcoming until a child is demonstrably two years behind the average for their age as was the case a decade ago? The consequence then was that a child was in year four before the school thought it had a problem on its hands. You notice that the reference point was also the average rather than an assessment of what the individual child had the potential to achieve despite all the guff about every child being helped to achieve their potential.
6.01 Could you please calrify and expand upon you point about the cohort survival rate? I think I agree with you but am not entirely clear. Thanks
This is all one big depressing mess! There are no decent funds available. The best thing would be to change the funding system. Then there would be no such thing as surplus places.(Richard Drax has a petition going around Purbeck.) If the odd school becomes so unviable because numbers drop, then so be it, if its a strong successful school it will continue to thrive. It would make so much more sense to leave all of this alone!
Do some of the posters really wish to see no children over the age of 11 educated in Swanage. That's really sad!.. with no access to after school clubs because of lack of transport. Other posters have critisised the practical side of all of this, but no transport, no school. Talk to some existing parents, and they will tell you that the bus service is unreliable, what will you do when you have gone to work assuming your 11 year old is safe on his/her way to school, and the bus doesn't turn up! All Purbeck Children were promised free transport, it didn't happen, the older children have to pay. Perhaps your children are very young and 11 may seem a long way away but time soon goes, and looking back 11 is no great age at all. Children need their families and communities, and then they feel secure enough to spread their wings and travel the world. Education is a lifetime of learning, no need to rush to send them away! These children are pawns at the moment. Its all a very expensive waste of time. 'If it aint broke, don't fix it'.
Only twice in three years has the bus failed to turn to take my kids to Purbeck. Sorry - it also didn't come when it snowed but we knew about that and it was an exceptional circumstance being the first proper snow Purbeck has had in 15 years. I would not call that particularly unreliable. Please try to avoid scare mongering.
Your children may catch a different
bus route to mine, as previous poster stated, the bus service is at times unreliable. I am also concerned that in future Swanage children will not have the same opportunities as Wareham children to attend and take part in after school clubs?
Now we can go and give our opinions to DCC.
"County council cabinet member for children's services Toni Coombs said:
"A number of concerns were raised over the proposals for these areas during the consultation, so we want the community, including parents, governors, staff, children and young people to be involved in the way the two-tier system could best meet the local needs in Swanage and Wool.
"These are not public meetings, but more informal drop-in sessions where people can take away information, discuss their ideas with officers or pop them in a suggestions box."
The sessions will be held at:
* Wool CE VA First School, 15 September 2009, 4pm to 6pm
* St Mary's RC First School (Wool) , 16 September 2009, 3pm to 5pm
* Swanage St Mark's CE VA School, 22 September 2009, 3pm to 5pm
* St George's CE VA First School, 23 September 2009, 3pm to 5.30pm
* St Mary's RC VA First School, 29 September 2009, 3pm to 5pm
* Swanage First School, 30 September 2009, 3pm to 5pm
* Swanage Middle School, 5 October 2009, 3pm to 6pm".
Could be tricky for those of us who have to work.
Sorry, source
http://www.dorsetforyou.com/index.jsp?articleid=393429
Once the drop in sessions have take place will DCC be inviting all the schools to come together with the community to a combined meeting at ? Swanage Middle School? Would this be led by an impartial chair, would therebe the opportunity for an open debate to take place.
It would seem that the suggestions collected from community,pupils parents, staff, governors,local councillors should be out in the public domain at a Public Meeting.
Is anyone able to say whether this is the intention.
Who is going to be leading these 'drop in sessions' what is the format??
There are now 2 recent documents that provide evidence and 'real' opportunities to support sustainable communities:
THE CORE STRATEGY (Purbeck District Council)
PPS 4 (National Consultation Planning Policy)
If you are looking for quotes that support rural communities then refer to these policy documents.
Forgive me for being dense.
Ive taken a look at the National Government Policy for sustainable communities(PPS4) and the Core Strategy for Purbeck.(PDC planning dept). Both documents confirm that communities should have their own schools (ie retain local amenities and encourage sustainable communities). Why then is DCC trying to close education to over 11's in Swanage, and why is it threatening to close Purbeck village schools? This seems to be going directly against their own policies. How will rural towns and villages be sustained if important amenities are withdrawn. What is Dorset County Councils Policy with regard to retaining community facilities?
Would anyone like to comment?
Bill stickers is innocent.
If you're old enough to remember ..... blink.
Lots of posters up in Langton 'bout saving the skool.
Anyone have any updates ........
The discussions with DCC about options for a secondary school are ongoing. DCC are very negative in their language and approach, and essentially they don't want to spend any money (if they have any to spend, which they say they do) but there are interesting developments and the more negative they become the more it seems to be in desparation to prevent a momentum building around the town which might make them do something visionary. A broad curriculum is an issue which we need further expert advice on, but the experts we have spoken to already tell us it's all doable with a little imagination and some timetabling software. Maybe I'm just being overly positive, but why be anything else?
Anyway, at last Education Swanage has a public face and (maybe foolishly) we welcome comments and questions. Most people on here seem to value their anonymity, so post questions etc here if you do, otherwise we can be contacted through our website at http://www.educationswanage.co.uk/
Lots of info on there to digest, and as we gather it in we'll be publishing more.
http://www.educationswanage.co.uk/
Nice website. Looks like a lot of work went into it. Hope it's not a waste of time for you but I don't think the idea of an extension to Purbeck School in Swanage is especially visionary. Not sure what the solution is.
Over 400 people..they just kept coming!!
St George's School drop in session last week..BBC recorded about 400 people turned up to ask challenging questions of Mr Perry and the Diocese. Huge support from the community. There is no doubt that the 'village of Langton Matravers is a thriving community. The school review team have promised in the consultation document that all existing village schools will remain, signed and sealed by John Nash and Toni Coombes. Generations of quarrying, fishing and farming families showed up. It was a glorious and happy event, an opportunity for old and young to mingle and share memories. Great Grandparents, Grandparents, Parents, children shared experiences of happy times. Local familes such as the Tatchells, Landers, Cattles, Priddles, Haysoms, Normans,Corbens attended and showed their support. Local councillors also dropped in for refreshments and home made cake!!
Yes previous poster, signs have been seen from Corfe Castle to Langton, posters up through the village and on every corner, banners outside the school and church.
It looks as though the community of Langton Matravers are alive and kicking!!
'Nice website. Looks like a lot of work went into it. Hope it's not a waste of time for you but I don't think the idea of an extension to Purbeck School in Swanage is especially visionary. Not sure what the solution is.'
Try really hard to come up with a solution, it could be that your idea is the one that everyone has been looking for?
Regarding the visionary-ness (made up word alert) of a twin-campus Purbeck School - there may be more exciting ideas out there, but we have to be pragmatic too!
If anyone can come up with the magic solution that DCC could work with that would be great, and I would welcome ANY ideas at all. Some we've already had include a standalone small school (DCC don't like that at all), an all-through 0-16 school incorporating one primary and a secondary, an independent Trust school on the Scandinavian model and a couple of others...
Come on Swanageview - throw your ideas this way!
Just dropped into the Co - op and its buzzing. A petition and a leaflet available to show support for a Swanage Secondary school ed. Seems that the Swanage community are supporting if the queue is anything to go by!
Dorset can't afford it. Should/would/could they borrow the extra?
Is a PFI possible?
Jim Knight asked Partnerships for Schools. They stressed they did not want to be used as an excuse by DCC. They have no objection to BSF money being used to build a Swanage campus if it would satisfy standards and surplus place criteria.
However, if money is not available, after a change of government say, there are far cheaper options than reorganising the entire pyramid to two tier. Peter Clarke suggests Bovington could move to two and the rest could stay at three. This would remove many of the surplus places - it is only Bovington that isn't sustainable. (Plus the Army like two tier provision as it's easier for children who have to transfer a lot.) This works well with Sandford and Lytchett at the moment.
There were as few children at Purbeck School in the early 90s as are projected now but DCC didn't do anything then - there wasn't BSF money to risk it. By 2020 DCC project us going back up to a 10.4 form intake at Wareham. This is without any houses being built at Upton or Purbeck becoming outstanding and attracting more pupils.
I am all for a Swanage secondary but if no BSF money is available and DCC want to use its own (our) money, it would be better spent improving education at the remaining three middles and at Purbeck, including providing adult education across the district.
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