Having bought a property here during the summer, for our permanent home in such beautiful surroundings, my wife and I are undecided over whether we are actually welcome or not. Is it the same for all newcomers?
Most neighbours are friendly enough, (we bought an ex-local authority house which, incidentally, has been in private hands over twenty years) but sadly we have those who want to show us we are not welcome by such things as all night television at an unacceptable volume. Sad ain't it? We are all the same in our book, doesn't matter if someone rents or owns a property, we should all make the best of what we have and accept each other as equals. Presumably, we are all only on this earth once?
What do readers think?
Paul.
Posted by Donkey to swanageview at 7:20 PM
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Welcome! Everyone was a newcomer once.
If you have trouble with neighbours, that's a matter of their selfish and inconsiderate behaviour rather than a general pattern. If they won't respond to polite requests, you could contact the Environmental Health Officer at Purbeck District Council. If things got really serious, then it would be something for the Police. It's certainly not acceptable to make other people's lives a misery.Good luck and enjoy Swanage.
Environmental health are the people to talk to. You seem to have encountered some of our more inbred locals. We are not all like that. Is it for your benefit or do they just leave the TV going all night?
Paul-
First, welcome to Swanage. We moved here twenty years ago, so we may have some insight to share.
I agree in general with the post above. Incidents of noise or disturbance are not restricted to Swanage and can be found anywhere these days. Go through the channels suggested and I hope it all works out well.
Back to us - we love Swanage but find, after twenty years, that the locals still refer to us as newcomers. There is a certain feeling that unless you can trace your family back many generations, you are not really a Swanager (is that the term?). We experienced the same thing in our last village in Gloucestershire - something to do with small town/village living. Nevertheless, life went on.
There is a very strong local feeling about second home owners here. They aren't quite as hostile as the Welsh used to be (remember "Come home to a REAL fire'?? ads?). But there is a feeling that second home owners drive up local prices and make it nigh on impossible for locals - especially the young - to set down roots here. There is a lot of truth to that. Funny thing, some of the local surnames with generations of links with the town have prospered through the massive increase in local house prices, as estate agents, solicitors and so on. Makes you wonder.
So - get stuck in, contribute to local groups, become a part of the town and all will be well. Just don't expect the locals to make the first move. After all, they were here first!
Bon chance!
I have been here since 1948 and one of these idiots grudgingly admitted that I was a sort of local. It has more to do with them resenting you bringing the attitudes of the outside world here. Are the people you are having trouble with long standing residents or relatively new arrivals? Some of the worst have not been here all that long themselves.
Ah, well, 4 comments. 2 quite rightly about EHO's, and 2 rather disparging about locals.
Define local?
The person who moved here 20 yrs ago still splits themselves from the locals; the person who moved here 61 years ago splits themselves from the locals.
So lets say that to be a local your family needs to have been living here in 1900.
Swanages population then was about 2,000, now it's about 10,000. We don't reproduce THAT much, the vast majority of people you talk to are 'comers in'.
Yours
mums family 200 yrs in Swanage, dads 500 - OK, some of that was in Worth!
I think PDC define local as anyone who's lived here for 5 yrs, seems fine to me.
I have been here since 1948 and one of these idiots grudgingly admitted that I was a sort of local.
Why are all locals idiots? a lot are, but not all. Visit the pubs/clubs/resturants around town and you will hear all sorts of accents, and yes a lot of them are trouble, loud, uncouth and obnoxious. I dont care where people come from as long as they respect my heritage and thet fact that I am proud to be a local.
Does some of the spitefull coments stem from some of the "newcomers" being jealous, because they dont have roots or be able to say thats my home town/region.
Anyway welcome and good luck.
If anyone gets on their high horse about locals etc, I say you live locally but your not a local :)
Really who gives a shit whether one is local or not,If one is honest, not agressive, can smile and say hello,
Where is the problem.
Get rid of the "I am a local"label. move on.
I am a resident.
"Why are all locals idiots?"
You tell me.
When I said "one of these idiots" it was the idiots I was thinking of not the locals. I then said some of the idiots had not been here all that long themselves. I take exception, as a sort of local, to being accused of describing myself as an idiot. There are plenty of other people willing to do that for me!
Could the four letter word post please be removed?
what four letter word? "fact" ?
Thanks very much, everyone, for taking the trouble to post your views to my original questions. Further angles on the subject will be well received, believe me.
I think what comes over is that many residents who have not had the experience of living in some other part of the country where the pace of life, 'rat race' kind of lifestyle is the norm, do not appreciate exactly what they have here? The town and surroundings is almost self-sufficient, as you say the greater majority of residents are very nice, and the beauty is apparent. It is bound to attract retirees such as ourselves.
Locals, and it's probably the wrong view, but I feel, do not want to accept that there is another life out there, if they have never left to see what it is like in the outside world? For example, I know of a far worse LA area for those who have to, for whatever reason, live on benefits in a housing association property, try 'The Valley' in Swindon, the town where we moved from, and compare it to social housing in Swanage. There is no comparison ... many people here do not realise just how fortunate they are.
Why upset neighbours just for the sake of it when they are trying their best to be decent people to live next door to? I don't get it, this is 'Heaven' when, for instance, you put it beside some of the 'drug dens' of other estates in other towns and cities. Why go against the grain, it doesn't add up?
We shall do our best to integrate with those who were 'here before us' and hopefully we have something to add to the local community? We are avid supporters at the football club, regularly use The Mowlem and are members of the indoor bowls club ... now there's diversity ain't it?
Paul.
All things are relative. One or two disruptive people in a town the size of Swanage have a disproportionate effect.
We've had a few ASBO's and the behaviour of the recipients was, by many places I've seen, relatively mild; but by Swanages stds appalling.
We have our fair share of people on the Sex Offenders Register. etc etc.
Being born 'n' bred, having lived in Hants, Cambs, Yorkshire and France, when I found myself homeless and jobless I moved back 'home'.
Swanage is as good as anywhere, and set in beautiful countryside.
If you're having trouble with one family then speak to the friendly ones - have the 'baddies' always been like that, or only since you moved in?
As for the locals, well some of them are, um, inwardly looking, but many of those locals have only been here for 30 or so years.
Swanage is just a microcosm of the UK, its good bits, its OK bits and its bad bits.
But remember everything is relative.
But remember everything is relative
A hint of sarcasm in the above line :)
If it was very very good.
LOcal person, even I found it funny.
6.46pm, well spoken in paragraphs 2 and 3.
Hi and welcome!
I am a local (born not bred)...and as far as I am concerned we need more people like yourselves to move here and live here, to keep the place running.
You should not need to put up with music playing all night long, what is the problem with these people.
What about your other neighbours, don't they complain about the behaviour of these people.
Welcome to Swanage!
I think that sometimes there is a kind of resentment in seeing newcomers arrive, especially in part social housing/part privately owned (albeit with homes bought under the 'Right To Buy' scheme) streets.
Putting myself into the other person's shoes, I can see that when it's apparent that the new people are maybe updating the place they've invested in, it turns on a dislike mode in the acceptance front. I will say that our house really needed updating and most of what has been done was totally necessary to bring the property up to even the housing association's own accommodation standards, no less, although it had been in private hands for over twenty years, yet had been neglected a bit!
All work has, clearly, had to be financed by ourselves, we cannot ring up for a workman in a blue van to come and do thousands of pounds worth of improvements as the landlord aspect determines. Surely, the resentful people must see that it is not spending money on the place for the sake of it, but because it has to be done.
Trying to buy down here is out of reach for many people, like ourselves, and joining a community in which ex-LA homes have become private does not actually mean that I agree with them ever being sold off, because I am afraid to say that many tenants have made glorious amounts of cash from buying their rented home and after a few years selling it into the private house sector. We have never had that luxury and have grafted over forty years to buy through neccessity back where we came from. We had to sell my bungalow and my second wife's house to be able to buy one property in this area ... that's true!
Sometimes, I struggle to see what the problem is between neighbours as we are all of the potential to try and do something with our lives, some do better than us, some just don't do at all, it seems!
What Swanage lacks is a little more industry to create work for those who living on benefits. I fail to see how a few small units planned for Victoria Avenue will encourage proper employers to come here and utilise the local labour force. Perhaps, instead of these small units, employing no more than four or five locals at most, could be alyered to 12 month rent free units large enough to accommodate companies who would need fifty or more employees? It wouldn't change the town into an industrial site, but it would give some hope to those who will, quite honestly, never have a job and rely on the system to suffice the needs, hence the all night entertainment aspect of some.
Sorry to go on ... comments very welcome.
Paul.
All the comments on the comparisons between those who rent and those who own could open a large 'can o' worm'.
I think that we should realise we live in a Country that thinks that it's a good idea to take out a massive loan that enables us to pay back a huge amount of interest and then after 20 + years own a house.
Because that is thought to be a good thing there are many people who rent who wished that they could afford the above. Hardly surprising that people moving into 'their area' and doing what they wish they could do causes a bit of annoyance.
“... although it had been in private hands for over twenty years, yet had been neglected a bit!”
“... We had to sell my bungalow and my second wife's house to be able to buy one property in this area ... that's true!”
And your choice – no-one forced you, don't go looking for sympathy.
“... some do better than us, some just don't do at all, it seems!”
Please don't forget that there are those who can't do any better, whether for physical or mental reasons.
“... never have a job and rely on the system to suffice the needs, ...”
Please check out http://www.dorsetforyou.com/index.jsp?articleid=343663 it provides the 'stats' relevant to Swanage and Dorset. As you'll see, Swanage is near enough the same as the rest of Dorset. Maybe you've been unfortunate enough to buy in the middle of one of Swanages ghettos, but if you'd done a bit of research before buying then mebbie you'd have found this out.
The question of bringing in a decent sized employer has long been a problem, but remember, just because you're employed doesn't mean that you don't get benefits.
So, what type of employer would fit into Swanage, poor transport, no unemployed mass chomping at the bit to work, isolated. As has been suggested many times before Swanages future lies in Hi-Tech information businesses and they don't need much space.
Sorry to seem so critical, but hey ho ….
It's good to hear your reflective comments,Anon ... you are right in much of what you write, and I can take criticism as much as you like.
I will defend one or two things I wrote about and one is the desirability of the area to outsiders. Indeed, I did my research fully. But, I maybe trust human nature a bit more than some and hope to see some good and common decency in all people.
The lady from whom we bought, did indeed not tell it how it is on her HIP questionnaire ... she now has aparently bought the home she wanted in Gloucestershire and good luck to her, we hold no real grudge, but would have enjoyed some truthful openness, maybe, though she would never had found a buyer with truthful endeavours, perhaps?
As I put it, the only way in which we, (and I presume it is the situation with many others moving here) could possibly afford a house and not an extortionately over-priced flat was to go for it and do our best to fit in when we arrived, so to speak, and buy what was within reach.
With regards to the work comments, I was not wishing to interfere with the mindset that 'nothing can be done to create jobs for unskilled unemployed people in the area', merely to inquire as to why a proposed collection of small units, sheds/garages would not be more lettable to a real employer if they were less in number and of a larger floor area?
The common idea that Swanage is a million miles from civilisation is a bit extreme ... we've had tradespeople from Bournemouth and even IOW come to do work and it's oddly no further to travel to Poole or Bournemouth to commute for work is it?
Don't ask why we didn't use all local labour, we do use a very good, fairly priced plumber, but other local tradespeople seem to want to 'exploit' the fact that they are nine miles from that civilisation again!
Good to chat ... I'm a nice person really and I thoroughly enjoy such a great little town and want to smile at and pass the time of day with any local who doesn't want to stab me in the back. Only joking, of course!
Paul.
hmmmmm .....
"With regards to the work comments, I was not wishing to interfere with the mindset that 'nothing can be done to create jobs for unskilled unemployed people in the area', ...."
I'm not at all sure where that mindset entered my post?
Perhaps, you took personally the 'mindset' bit, when as a general comment it is assumed that the powers that be do not appear to have the problem of the lack of mostly unskilled jobs as very high up their list of priorities. I would like everyone to have the chance of work, even if it is topped up with benefits, and to turn a blind eye to a problem is maybe not the answer.
The Conservatives, should they unfortunately take over running the country again, will drastically reduce benefits, and Labour could also contemplate the same ... how do these people who have little or no chance of earning a living look after their own then?
Everyone needs a chance, Swanage and the surrounding area produces children who will eventually require work ... where is the employment going to come from if only little units are erected ... no possibility of going out into the country to attract a couple of decent sized employers with this attitude.
Just putting it bluntly, but sincerely, you know? And, incidentally, you are right in an earlier piece, it was our choice to move here, and no we are definitely not seeking sympathy, just acceptance, which is apparently not immediately forthcoming for other newcomers, as far as one hears?
Paul.
Everyone needs a chance, Swanage and the surrounding area produces children who will eventually require work ... where is the employment going to come from if only little units are erected ... no possibility of going out into the country to attract a couple of decent sized employers with this attitude.
This inept corrupupt Govt: has destroyed what little hope this country ergo this area had for jobs and properity, you are delusional if you think this present shower can save us, what ever you think about the tories - and i did not vote for them at the last GE or euro elections- they do offer a fresh chance to get us out of this mess. Paul I dont know if you have kids or grandkids but they are going to inherit this debt.
Do they deserve that?
Hi paul
I'm 5.44 and 9.01 and local - as in 100's of years.
I think we may find that that last postee is the same.
Two sides of the same coin!
Vive la differance!
A fresh chance! More like a fat chance.
I had my Xmas card from Mr Drax today and I noticed one of the things they would like to do is restore the link between the state pension and inflation. Who did away with it in the first place you might ask. Why it was this same conservative party of course. This statement of pious optimism followed the usual ritual denunciation of Labour for spending too much! Where he thinks the money is coming from I don't know. More tax? Perhaps that nice Ashcroft fellow who is trying to buy the tories back into power will pay.
Sad to say it, but if the Conservatives do actually 'con' their way into office by public default and protest, then we will really see a change, unfortunately it will not be for the better because their sole understanding of the problems is apparently to cut everything ... same old Tories.
Yes, I have two daughters, currently paying mortgages at under half the percentage interest rates to which I was accustomed. I can bear the stagnant savings rates, if only for that reason. I have seven grandchildren who have far more educational opportunity than I had, even in going to grammar school for six years. Equality in education has removed certain stigmas and certainly gives them all a chance to learn should they wish to.
This Government has urged the building of many new hospitals and schools, admittedly PFI has been used effectively to do this.
Pensioners, including those around here have benefitted impressively from Government initiatives, which I understand the Conservatives will 'adjust' in their programme of cuts?
Children in poverty have been helped, or put it another way, their parents have been given more benefits to have more kids and stay at home on the increased subsidies. This alleviates the need for Swanage/Purbeck and Dorset area Conservative led Councils to bring in outside employers to 'giz a job' to the un-skilled. (That's a bit cheeky, I know, but some truth in it, maybe?) Though, on reflection, where does Jim Knight stand on this matter, he's clearly a decent MP for the constituency, but are his hands tied over what goes on in Purbeck ... I assume so? Could he try to improve the employment prospects for some of these, generally, quite bright youngsters who are carted off to Wareham to secondary education and with little prospects of work after this education in their hometown?
All in all, what exactly have the Tories promised, which will assist this Swanage area ... I can't see anything to shout about myself, but there again I ain't a floating voter, I am a realist? I'm sticking with what we've got, at least they have a plan, albeit long term!
Yes, its like one of those medieval surgeons whose only treatment was to bleed the patient. When the treatment stopped the patient started to recover and the doctor then congratulated himself on creating the "conditions for recovery".
Oh Paul, now look what you've done.
You've woken up the locals and they've gone all 'tangential' on us.
Anyhoo, welcome to Swanage, make the most of it, warts 'n' all.
Nothing like a small dose of political persuasion!
Paul.
Are newcomers welcome in Swanage>
NO.
Welcome by who?
Many of us are all in favour of people moving here. Its a pity more of the Poles and other east europeans did not stay.
Oh Paul
I'm 5.44 and 9.01 and 5.48 - local - as in 100's of years.
See what happens when you poke the nest!
All are welcome, so long as they don't moan and actually get involved.
yours in hope, but not expectation!
'Mornin', Anon 5.58 and etc. ...
Yes, I really do want to fit in down here, just like a pebble on the beach!
But, I read the various comments on the very lively forums connected to Swanage, and cannot help but to make a contribution here and there.
It's the lively, informing chit chat by some far greater minds than my own, which inspire.
I ended my educational activity, more or less, at grammar school level, no university for me, so I haven't learned all the 1001 different ways of saying that infamous word ... 'absolutely' in response to a query, and I do tend to question why things remain in the status quo when there seems to be so many citicisms and objections to what measures are taken by elected bodies in the Purbeck area.
I don't understand the ways of democracy down here, if those in power don't 'do the wishes of the people', then why not show the disatisfaction at the ballot box as in General Elections?
I know I will get some answers eventually, but to me a political vote is wasted, when it is the only means to show feelings in dramatic style.
Paul.
5.58 would like to point out that if you are a pebble on our beach then we'll lose our Blue Flag and Swanage will, um, er, something or another!
"...greater minds than my own..."
Modesty is a false emotion, and used by people seeking affirmation - sheee ite, I've just realised why people say that I'm arrogant!
One does not have to have gone to Uni to be intelligent and inquisitive; it is also not a requirement for the correct usage of our dear mother tongue.
OK, I am arrogant!
As for your comment about local democracy, weeelll, STC, as they refer to themselves, are merely a Parish Council and have demned all effect on our lives - until now.
They suddenly have £7+million of 'our' money waiting to be invested and they're thinking - if that's not an overstatement - ho ho! - those with a Uni eDuKat10n may smirk at my overuse of the '-' - but - hey ho!
Right, where was I?
Oh, yeah, a stinging diatribe on the parlous state of democracy in Dorset.
... thinking of selling 'our' allotments to raise dosh to allow them to do the maintenance they should have done years ago instead of borrowing and lumbering 'us' with a debt. (Sounds a bit like the W'ern World at the moment, does it not?)
It seems that hardly any young people - that's under 40 - he said optimistically - it could be 50 - vote. I've often wondered why cuz every time they sign their name they use an X - what's so difficult about voting?
This next statement is a complete and utter fabrication and never happened.
Once upon a time a Councillor told me about another Councillor who a couple of weeks before an election visited all of our nursing homes. Come voting day all the inmates - who take their responsibility to vote very seriously - went out to vote for that 'lovely young - relative - person who came to see them last week.
Now that's blinkin' good marketing, and no lower than the levels than most of our politicians stoop to.
Oh, if only it were a true story!
Then PDC. As I understand it PDC is a major employer in Purbeck and has certain statutory duties that it just about has enough cash to cover.
End of story.
One glimmer of hope is that Purbeck is managing to buck the national trend. The make up of PDC is 50% Tory and 50% the rest. (It used to be VERY Tory - maybe there's some hope!).
Dorset CC does have some clout but is beginning to listen. Proposed - important word - closure of the: Day Centre, A&E, Recycling Centre, certain Swanage Schools.
Give DCC their due, they have proposed what we don't want, we've complained and they've listened.
Even when they bodged the resurfacing of Studland Hill to Studland, we complained, they did, some, remedial work.
Sometimes voting is pointless, but complaining works.
Right, tongue removed from cheek, out of rant mode now.
Everyone OK? I do hope so.
Arrogant and patronising!
Lovely piece, Anon ... I'll call you, say ... Algernon The Anonymous, how's that?
What you write is fair, honest and from the heart of a composed warrior.
Politically, things do get out of hand at election times, and the bit about care and sheltered home visits from vote catchers is very true ... all parties and some independants have been known to use this urging postal votes with the elderly in homes. Picking up voters by car and taking them to and from Polling Stations was a quite usual thing to do, again by all parties.
There is some parity in this as, where I come from, Swindon, an old railway town completely sold down the river by a certain blue party in government in the eighties has grown into a bulging mass of infiltrators to what used to be a happy town. Used to be Labour Council, now Conservatives making one heck of a mess of it, but with two Labour MPs! I digress.
In a nutshell, many closely knit terraces of railway workers homes, as was, traditionally housed working class Labour voters. As these people aged, they often would end up in one of the many elderly persons sheltered homes still in the electoral ward ... You see where I am coming from ... yes?
Of course, the local party would try and make it 'easier' for prospective socialist votes to still be collected.
Similarly, as if to cancel this out, in what is called 'Old Town', Swindon ... that's right, you've guessed it ... the Tories were doing exactly the same to make sure their loyal voters were assisted in putting their crosses in the appropriate box! Many elderly and wealthy people found themselves in sheltered accommodation, in some quite luxurious surroundings, and still in the locality to where they had, for many years, lived and voted blue, before spending most of the dosh from selling their glamourous dwellings for equally posh sheltered apartments. They could not afford to lose the little crosses.
Down here, I think you assessment of those who actually can be bothered to vote is probably quite true, though this time round maybe proposed cuts could hurt one or two of them deeply? Many fought for the retention of St George's School, alongside more illustrious residents with far more assets than they could ever dream of ... someone may have the initiative to motivate them into seeing that their vote would count just as much in a future election, but I won't hold my breath!
Both Swindon and Swanage have a politically motivated club run by the Tories ... it really does give them prominence over the others, that's for certain, but the other parties could only dream of such an advantage.
Paul.
Interesting.
Before, you've made comments about swanage having a decent employer - swindon - honda.
It would of course been far better if it had been - deep intake of breath, please don't laugh - british leyland!
C'mon now, I'm making a point, not being specific.
The cons started the decline and fall of the brit motor industry, labour didn't have the right ideas, and the cons administered the coup de grace.
But, the cons did give us honda and the one at sunderland etc, which whilst the world economy was ok provided many good jobs.
Sometimes, you have to go with flow, and work with what you've got.
Now can anyone explain why my shift key is only working at the start of a sentence?
CAPS LOCK IS FINE.
Sorry.
Algie
Sorry about the length of this rant, which does not address the topic of this thread directly, but does discuss a certain national head in the sand attitude we see in microcosm locally, so I can claim some relevance.
Looking at the last post, it depends what you mean by "British". The number of cars made in the UK was at very much the same level as in the 70s until a year ago. Peak output was 1998 or 1999 depending on whether you include commercial vehicles. All thanks to the Japanese as we know.
We are therefore discussing the firms with UK owners. I don't think you can blame the politicians for the fall of the UK owned makers. They were perfectly capable of destroying themselves. Their glory days in the 50s were due to the temporary absence from the market of German, French and Italian makers and trade barriers, once the other European firms got going again it was downhill. The European makers had to compete with one another to an extent because of the Common Market, the UK ones hid behind a tariff barrier and a protected commonwealth/sterling area market and failed to develop products that could compete on the world market. When they had to compete collapse followed, with the blame thrown in all directions, at their employees, at whatever government was in office and at the public in general who they imagined owed them a living. Anything to divert attention away from the fact that they made no attempt to find out what buyers wanted and build it. The Mini is a prime example. Poorly built, expensive to make, a hopelessly compromised design, desperately cramped, unreliable, unsafe and rust prone but hyped to the skies. And it lost money for years. A sort of mechanical Dunkirk. If you drove one down the motorway at what we now regard as normal cruising speed for a few hours on a fine day the engine was never the same again. I said on a fine day as on a wet day the spray from trucks as you passed them drowned the engine and you were forced to drive slowly and not overtake for fear of grinding to a halt. Those were indeed the days.
Interesting and informative - thanks.
I was looking at it from the point of view of what gov't can do to support it's - as in the countries - industries, and also at the motorcycle side, which mirrored the car industry except in 2 ways.
1 was the Mini and other cheap cars, which began the downfall of the m'cycle and
2 that the m'cycle ind, was considered by the gov't (Con) to be a strategic one and so was lent money to help it survive, but not enough to help it grow. With the advent of the 3-day week so funding was withdrawn. When Lab got back in they tried to 'help' with the NVT Co-Op, which was the last gasp.
Too little money, poor(!) owner/union relations and so bye-bye to a once world leading (OK, it was a fixed market) industry.
After a long history of under investment by both private owners and gov't, a seeming inability to read what the public wanted and many poor practices a Strategic industry died.
Instead of having a thriving leisure industry - cuz that's what m'cycles are these days - a la Italy, we now have Triumph who have a private owner - John Bloor - who invests and insists on the highest quality control; Norton who have just released a 'retro' - very popular these days - bike that recently had a fairly lukewarm review by MotorCyclenews, and Hesketh who will build to order.
Where's all the investment into the 'new' industries?
Or have we, yet again, refused to learn from history?
Its hard to see how the government could be expected to make a going concern out of companies with such a poor prospect that the shareholders turned their backs on them. It only got socialism a bad name.
Ironically the solution to many problems was known. The TUC was called in to sort out the German trade union movement after the second world war and did so on the basis of what is known as industrial unions, i.e. a metal workers union for engineering rather than the 1001 piddling little craft unions we had.
We also had a multiplicity of small firms none of which could afford the investment needed for a world class car. Look at the competition. Italy - Fiat, Germany - VW and Ford, France - Renault, Peugeot and Citreon. The UK Ford, GM, and the small fry- Rootes, Austin, Morris MG, Riley, Wolesely, Rover, Triumph, Standard and a few more, all with pretensions of making cars for the general market.
However much money was poured the problems inherent in the structure were going to destroy the industry sooner or later. The answer was starting from scratch with new plants and single union agreements. This was a revolution beyond the ability of government to deliver.
"It only got socialism a bad name"
Interesting, as it was the tories who decided what were 'Strategic' industries and worthy of financial support.
If you look at the rebirth of, in particular, German industry, they enlisted the help of the British military to restructure.
Their model is based on the British Army - go fugure!
"The UK Ford, GM..."
I could have sworn that Ford and GM were American!
"...a multiplicity of small firms..."
You're spot on there, cuz our Gov't doesn't invest to protect itself - and us.
Nearly all other Gov'ts do, could they be right?
I think you missed my point. GM and Ford are major UK manufacturers - they have factories here and employ large numbers. Its rather pointless discussing the car industry without them. The location of their headquarters makes no difference.
I was talking about the German TUs, not the employers. Can you enlarge on the use of the British army as a model for industrial organisation. I had not come across this before.
There is more to it than investment. Ford, GM, Honda, Nissan and Toyota found most of the money themselves. The problem was that most UK owned firms were at heart bicycle makers with attitude. Putting them under a single ownership achieved very little. The answer was to invest in new factories large enough to achieve the required economies of scale. This would have entailed closing a lot of old ones which rather went against the policy of keeping them going. Its what happened in the end. It was not something that a political party could have taken on board. Its easy to see this in hindsight and it was not something we thought at the time.
Morning, always assuming that you are 10.43
“We are therefore discussing the firms with UK owners.”
You were, I am, which is why I excluded Ford and GM.
“Ford, GM, Honda, Nissan and Toyota found most of the money themselves...”
Maybe they did, aided by huge Tax breaks and some of the laxest employment laws in the W'ern world; we also need to remember that the EU use quotas on how many cars/m'cycles you can sell here unless you have a factory here.
JIC – here = EU
“Putting them under a single ownership achieved very little. The answer was to invest in new factories....”
Well, as I said earlier, that's what our Govt's tried to do, the remaining M'cycle manufacturers were lumped together as NVT and given enough money to survive, but not to redevelop.
Short sighted, inefficient and wasteful – as you said “... not something we thought of at the time …..”.
We, well, our gov'ts, thought that if we preserved British manufacturing then the rest of the world would buy it. That's the only interpretation I can find for this policy – sheer, bloody, unadulterated arrogance!
I've mentioned Triumph and John Bloor before, a business rescued and re-established by a rich individual.
Our Gov'ts could have done it.
PS
due to the housing crash and possibly some dodgy accounting Bloor has a few headaches at present, but Triumph remains OK.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/engineering/5469875/Triumph-Motorcycles-owner-Bloor-breaches-covenants.html
JIC
http://tinyurl.com/oj6tug
By coincidence the papers have reviews of this book today "Globalization and Varieties of Capitalism: New Labour, Economic Policy and the Abject State" by Dan Coffey of Leeds University and Carole Thornley of Keele University. Its 50 quid so I don't think Santa is going to pop it in my stocking, however, if anyone interested puts in for it at the library they may think there is enough demand to buy a copy. I don't know what the threshold number of request is is but its not very high and its the sort of thing we all need to read to inform our discussions.
I am not trying to defend the record of either political party. I think the task they were set was incapable of being achieved. The seeds of the problems with British engineering go right back to the emergence of the firms themselves and their working methods, organisation and ideology in the mid-nineteenth century.
It took "year zero" situations in Germany and France to bring about change and this was against a background of a far more positive attitude by industrialists to state involvement than in the UK.
The initial plan for Germany was that it should have no heavy industry. This was the Morgenthau plan and owed much to US industrialists wanting to keep German competition at bay. The spin was that Germany should not have an armament making capability. It was of course complete nonsense and was discarded in short order when the MC called "take your partners for the cold war"
The two overlapped and there were instances of machine tools being taken away from factories under the first plan and new ones being installed the next day under the new dispensation. This may have convinced the Germans that the British had little to teach them about organisation. I have no idea how the British army fitted into this.
France saw nationalisation of car makers thanks to the willingness of their owners to participate in the German war effort. This went on not withstanding the removal of the CP from the post war coalition government despite its widespread popular support. Italy famously got the most democratic election money could buy with similar results.
Wowzer, getting a tad heavy now!
I forgot to mention that the Hyde Harrier has just been released as well.
No multi-millionaires, no Gov't money, just a couple of people who were there back in the '70's and who decided to bring the original Triumph up to date(ish).
No longer Triumphs of course tho'.
That rather illustrates the culture of fragmentation that characterises the UK engineering industry.
We have a culture that is very good for producing inventors and innovators but we make such a fetish of independence that economies based on a slightly more collective/joint endeavour view of the world run rings round us. The British love factions and sects. You need look no further than the dozen or so versions of the christian religion on offer in Swanage, all pushing exactly the same product with tiny variations in design. The last thing the UK based car and bike makers wanted was to be rolled up into a single firm making about four models.
Maybe, your last sentence was true to the requirement today? Are motorists getting fed up with the escalating trend of no parts fitting more than one model?
Back in my early motoring days, parts designed for one Morris or Austin model would fit many others, now if a part goes wrong, and the vehicle is not so common, it can take days to get one from overseas.
Just like technology in general, there is far too much choice and individualism. Simplicity could save billions at a time when the planet is trying to avoid waste.
'Fraid not!
These days one firm buys up another and standardises many parts. Then to make our lives tricky each firm supplies their own part number - and premium.
One example is Škoda, Audi, Volkswagen and Seat, who are really one business with many common parts; but I bet that wheel bearing you need has 4 different part numbers, each has a different price - and availability - but each has a standard bearing number. Take that bearing number to your local stockist and save - in my case - £60. (£15 vs £75) (Not a bearing fitted to any of the above).
Another, is that shortly after Ford bought ?Volvo?, ?Volvo? released a new range - which is largely the Mondeo, bet they have different part numbers.
The idea of greater choice is a myth.
From the world of motorcyling. You buy a Yamaha and then decide to upgrade it. You fit Brembo brakes, cuz they're better than the OE fitment. You buy Ohlins - or is it White Power? - suspension cuz they're better than than the OE fitment.
You feel good! Yamaha rub their hands together, cuz they own them all.
One bike I'm looking at at the moment has one small but expensive electrical problem. Not a worry because one of the same companies other models uses the same part. This second bike was much more popular so the part is about half the price - under a different part number.
And thank God none of these parts are made by Lucas!
"And thank God none of these parts are made by Lucas!"
Amen to that. If I wanted to point the finger at one cause of the sorry mess it would be them.
The rationale for all those brands we had a few decades ago was the use of common components which is pretty much what Ford does on a bigger scale with Volvo/Mazda/Jaguar using the same floor pans and mechanical parts. Badge engineering goes from strength to stregnth. GM sells a Hungarian made Suzuki as a Vauxhall. You can buy the same car as a Peugeot, Citreon or Toyota. Its made in the Czech Republic. What we don't get to hear about is the quality and life expectancy of the parts in them which depends very much on what the car makers are willing to pay.
Buying parts for domestic appliances by their real manufacturer's numbers rather than those of the appliance maker can save a lot as well, should you ever need to replace the pump in your washing machine for example. (The usual warnings about having the presence of mind to unplug it prior to interfering with its innards apply of course.)
So, if I read this right, we all agree that things are homogenised and therefore 'comers-in are welcome to Swanage!
Apart from the Lucas family it seems.
If there is a point to be made it that we have the illusion of choice in many consumer areas but we like to kid ourselves that a Zannussi washing machine is different from an Electrolux one and some of us kid ourselves that there is a choice over whether people can come and live here either full or part time. Unfortunately the latter group can impact on the rest of us.
By latter group I meant those who think they have a choice over who lives/buys property here rather than the buyers of the property here themselves. Sorry it can be read both ways. I was thinking of the awkward squad rather than the second homers. Lets not get into an argument about them in this thread please.
Come to think of it some newcomers would be a good idea. Every time we go into the Co-op for our groceries I recognise just about everybody in the place. Its spooky.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/6905453/Second-home-owners-force-schools-to-close.html
Urgent:
Please spread the word, we need lots of incomers with lots of children, to live in our lovely Isle of Purbeck homes.
Happy New Year
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