have you heard that this labour govt is to employ inspectors to visit peoples houses to see if they have increased the value of their homes by adding patios conservatories and even double glazing big fines if you do not alow access
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Posted by Anonymous to swanage view at 10/25/2006 09:29:58 PM
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We get these fairy stories around at times. This one started off quite some time ago. it originally came out that there was going to be Spy satelite to spy on what had been done in peoples gardens.
That one went the rounds on the internet.....with the usual anti labour people spewing out their usual vitriol.
The Daily Mail?
no comment then (if true) of your opinions on the subject, or implications for you or your fammily. or the implications on personal freedom, then again spewing anti labour vitriol i expect your imune because your a card carrying labourite, there goes the sensible discussion.
Judging by the style of this posting it comes from the character who put something on here a while ago about a change in the law that allows councils to rent out empty homes against the owners wishes in extreme cases. Our friend had picked up the Telegraph's political correspondents take on the Tory spokesperson's take on the ministerial press release which must have made their comments fourth hand.
What I love is the way they pick up the tone of artificial outrage the journalists they read adopt as if it was genuine.
If you do something to increase the value of your house it is perfectly sensible to have a way of finding out whether you should be paying a higher band of council tax. When we had rates the same thing applied. If you built an extension your rates went up. Exactly which civil liberty is threatened by this? If you think you enjoy a right to refuse various officials admittance to your home you must be living in cloud cuckoo land. You have never had such a right.
Can you explain the significance you attach to this coming from a labour government? If you think its a token of socialism you must be about the only person in the land who thinks there is anything socialistic about New Labour.
Please only whisper this.
Family tax credits can be viewed as redistribution of wealth.
Not exactly. Tax credits are a form of redistribution of income which is not quite the same thing as redistibution of wealth. If I point out that they are a negative income tax and this was proposed by the liberal for years before new labour picked it up I will be accused of being a lib-dem, which I am not, however, credit where credit is due, (excuse the pun) it was their idea. We used to have something called family income supplement but wasn't that introduced by a conservative government.
You could argue that tax credits are just a way of subsidising employers who pay low wages and that it would be better to increase the minimum wage to a high enough level to live a normal life on.
i dont take or read the telegraph or mail, come on make a comment on how it would effect you, again i read (wether true or not) that if you have installed double glazing you will be penalised correct me if im wrong but does that not save heat ergo save resources? and as for tax credits be on them or know about them before commenting please. again left wing idiots put down others, some people on here and in swanage in general think because they consider themselves more educated they are superior to the rest.
Penalised when you increase the value of your house?
Sorry, I don't understand.
Under the old Rates and Council Tax you pay a certain amount depending on the value of your house.
Let's try this:
A Romanian builder comes to live in Swanage and buys a patch of land with a very run down Band A house on it.
Through hard work he rebuilds his house. Converting it into 6 beds - 4 en-suite, adds a patio, and a swimming pool, and a double garage Next he brings his extended family over to live with him, and of course is still paying Band A Council Tax.
You say that you don't take the Telegraph or the Mail, so the:
Sun
Star
Express
sadly, probably even the Mirror, etc
find out about this.
I wonder what the headline would be?
CHAV SLAV RIPS OFF LOCALS.
P.S. I'm poorly educated, have lived on benefits for years, but still a left winger.
lived on benefits for years I wont comment on that because i dont know the full story as for increasing the value of your house that only went as far if you increaed the sq ft of the house, did not include conservatoties patios or DG or even en-suites, imagine this a st with same houses lets say 3 of em #1 lives mr & mrs blogs lives on benifts does nothing to their house does not pay very much or any councill tax #2 mr&mrs jones goes to bingo booze and benidorm pays counil tax #3 mr & mrs smith carefull with their money puts up a nice conservatory DG and say a patio and a small en-suite they are visited and end up paying say another £200 per yr moral of the story is dont try and improve yourself because you will be penalised those who waste it all get the better deal
has happened before and will happen again
so what the headline leftwing loonies lash at locals.
I dont take papers because they are full of c5ap I trawl the net very often using AP and BBC websites for my news. so dear left wing loonie would you pay say and extra £100 per yr on your tax for having DG (even though that is helping the enviroment) or would we end up paying your share being taxed now for being green bloody hell wheres my chelsea tractor!
While the gist of the last post is rather hard to follow s/he does make an excellent point, if you increase the value of your house but make it more fuel efficient shouldn't that be recognised.
I think the idea is that
family 1 on benefits are too poor to do anything except survive.
family 2 have spare cash and spend it having fun rather increasing the value of their house - they pay tax on travelling, alcohol, good god they may even smoke!
family 3 have spare cash and spend it on increasing the value of their house - they pax tax on their investment.
Where's the problem?
WhatI find so difficult to grasp is the idea that we have left wing loonies in the UK.
Now if you had said that we have Conservatives that ran the economy like the eonomics of the madhouse.
Absolutely lunatic. Then I would agree.
Who else could possibly dream up the Tragic/comical farce of "Black Wednesday" When the treasury team were buying back our own currency at a huge loss in the world money markets.
"Cloud Cuckoo land" Unbeleivable!
Who was prominant in that team? Not our nice Mr Cameron? Surely not? Was he? YUP! That's the bloke.
Surely not? But I understand that he is now their leader? Surely not!
An odd way to get promotion!
I mentioned tax credits. Why anyone should be forbidden from doing this unless they receive them is something I cannot understand. Its pure censorship. In fact I do receive tax credits. I dont have a patio so perhaps the person who began this thread thinks I should not mention patios. Strange reasoning. It gets even though. They would have us believe that if someone invests in their property and increases its value they should continue to pay council tax at the rate appropriate to an unimproved house. However, if this hypothetical person sold the old house and bought a similar one that had the improvements they wanted already meade they would pay the higher rate of council tax on that without complaint. By the same token if they get a better paid job or work longer hours they will be penalised by paying more income tax and NI. If they bought shares with their money instead of improving their house and selected them wisely the income they received as dividends would go up and so would the tax they paid on it. When they sold the shares they could very well be liable to capital gains tax. How unfair.
Double glazing in the form of replacement windows as a way of reducing energy consumption gives a very poor return on the large expenditure required. Its a red herring. It certainly makes a house more comfortable and increases the value though.
Our friend thinks education makes people left wing. The inference is that only the ignorant or stupid are right wing. Can't really argue with that.
Oops, sorry! Forgot to answer the question. If I invested say £30,000 on improving my house and increaded its value by that amount and if paid £100 a year more council tax I would think I was doing very well. I would be getting a tax free capital gain of 5-10% a year. If I had invested the money elsewhere I could expect only about a 5% return on it and I would be paying income tax on that and capital gains tax when I sold the investment. Looks like a pretty good deal.
the problem is say you spend, £5000 on improvements, you have allready paid VAT on the goods and services ergo that nulifies your argument about #2 but why oh why should you be penalised for wanting a better life style the house may only be worth say £5000 extra but looks nicer and might sell quicker i think it boils down to they have more than us tax the c&ap out of them, again a left wing ideal. but what about if this stopped people improving their homes would that not mean a loss of employment and services? again I ask if they improve their property with DG and new heating system why should they pay why not reward them with lower tax as they have at least made an effort, also are house not banded in valuation? it seems the more you do for yourself the worse off you become.
Surely that's a question about budgeting?
There's an entirely legal system, and we live in it, we have to know that system and plan.
Anyway, what's so important about owning a house?
Am I missing something. You are saying that if I want a better or bigger home and achieve that by investing money in a property I already own this should not be reflected in its council tax banding whereas if I get a better house by buying one its OK to pay more tax on it. That makes no sense at all.
If you want to argue that houses that use less energy should pay less tax thats a very good idea. They already do it with cars. It may be a little complicated because it would mean giving every house an energy value as some sort of coefficient and multiplying the council tax by this, so that a well insulated house would have a value of say 0.7 but a poorly insulated one would be 1.3 or whatever. Thus they could be in the same band and pay different amounts.
Well said.
It makes perfect sense. Suppose there are two houses for sale, identical except that one has a nice patio, lots of decking, central heating, double glazing, a garage etc etc. natuarly enough this one is in a higher council tax band. I should be able to buy the unimproved one and make all these changes to it but go on paying at the lower rate because letting someone in to the house to see what has been done is an unwarrantable attack on my civil liberties. I think its time you were beamed back up, Scoty.
I think I'm loosing the will to live here, reverse that situation.
You live in a house, say Band D. Next door is Band D as well.
I move in next door to you and improve my house - en-suite, sauna, gym, music room, creche, garage, decking, swimming pool, outside cinema etc etc.
I still pay the same Council as you?
'an unwarrantable attack on my civil liberties'
I love quotes like that.
European legislation, which our gov't finally agreed to.
God Bless the EU.
Your getting there. The right wing think you can turn your two up, two down into a 12 bedroom palace and pay the same council tax on it 'cause you shouldn't have to let the nasty man from the council in to see what you have done and work out a fair amount for you to pay. Its all about the threat to your rights if you have to let them in. Its always nice to welcome converts to the human rights struggle so we shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.
no one is saying if you turn your 2 up 2 down into a 12 bed house that you should NOT pay extra tax that was dealt with in the commenst about sqft oh sorry are we still allowed to use that expresssion ? what i am saying if you make improvements to your home patios DG perhaps a ensuite why should you be penalised and also why should tonys nasty little inspectors be able to run all over your property, then again you left wing idiots advocate people reporting smaokers in public places. god how i yeran for the old days. anyways me and ma and pa gotto go check on the borders nake sure all us white folk are the same side.
Are you saying you should be able to increase the value of your house from one council tax band to the next without having to pay more but if it jumps several you should pay. Its just the same official who has to make the assesment but you think its OK to let him in if there are ten more bedrooms but not if its only a lovely new patio and some nasty upvc windows. Where is the cutoff point? three more rooms? a granny annexe?
There are all sorts of people who can demand admittance to your home. Were you unaware of this? If you think its some sort of labour ting explain why the tories did not take away their right to do this. They had ample opportunity for 18 years, or were they too busy finding ways to let their pals off paying their share of tax? Remeber all those tax cuts, a little bit for you little people and a noce big slice for us. VAT reduced from 8% to 17.5%.
Aren't the right wing funny.
They show the almost enviable ablility to twist and turn their logic, so that they can say anything they like and still be right.
anyways ive had enough of this now as i said im off to keep these shores free for us white people perhaps you loony left can build bigger houses and then let all the imigrants live in em FOC.
Sad
He's gone to polish his jackboots.
I hope anybody reading this in the outside world does not come to the conclusion that Swanage is inhabited by crazed racists.
I live in Swanage - is it OK if I come to that conclusion?
Badly educted leftee wud lik to no, does FOC mean:
free of charge, or F*&%k*nG old curmudgeon?
SAD is that the sydrome you get when you crave the sun in the winter months (and comrade thats the big glowing thing in the sky not the murdoch rag)
All you lefties out there - rejoice.
I've just re-read on of the Nazi posts responding to a lefty who's lived on benefits, I quote:
"lived on benefits for years I wont comment on that because i dont know the full story"
Steuth, a R winger who wont comment because s/he doesn't know the full story.
There is hope - they can be educated.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6095452.stm
I just can't be bothered to find the link, but ages ago the Gov't said that there wouldn't be any changes to Council Tax during this Parliament.
Of course they're going to trial things, good God, they think they might be re-elected, then we'll see.
When will you people realise that 'Divide And Conquer' also applies to those deliberately taking the opposite stance? This whole Right and Left debate has been going on for years and is not the answer.
While you're arguing, the money you pay in Council Tax is being wasted in loads of different ways. Why not get together or at least stop bickering, audit your local council and find ways to plug the gaps?
That way, whatever system is chosen to raise taxes, there won't be so much required!
What the link leads to is a BBC news report which says that the local taxation system in Northern Ireland is being changed so that it comes closer to being based on real property values. The government say they have no intention of introducing it in England.
The implication if we go off into fantasy land and look at what would happen if they did are interesting when you consider the factors influencing house prices mentioned in the report. If your local council does its job properly and keeps the streets clean, gets good results in the schools and keeps the homeless off the streets the value of your house will go up and so will the tax you pay. We could have politicians campaigning with the slogan "vote for me, I'll keep the street dirty."
Could the person who thinks councils waste money have a read through the most recent auditors reports, which available on line, and suggest where savings can be made.
got the debate going tho and if you read furher whos to say it is not a pilot scheme. as for those saying its an internet falacy is it ?
A debate about what? All we have had is people telling that you you have got the wrong end of the stick again and various red herrings you have brought up.
Tell us how you think local government should be financed. Skip the ritual bit about waste, however efficient local government is it will still need a lot of money.
dear 1149 i was on about the debate on the subject of snoopers in the local councill seeing what improvements have been done to peoples house i never mentioned local councill funding or waste!!!! THE WORD YOU ARE LOOKING FOR IS sorry
I still don't know what you are on about. When we had domestic rates local authorities had rating officers who had to work out how much should be paid. They still do this for non-domestic property. How can they do their job without looking at work that has been done to buildings which may increase the rateable value?
I just dont see how a tax based on property values such as we have, can operate if, as you seem to think think, people are allowed to keep the value of their property secret from the officials who work out how much they should pay.
The story is in a number of newspapers now. They all say the government says it is not going to happen. Just think of all the other exciting threads we could have about things the government is not going to do. They are not going to make the place a republic and have Sadaam Hussein as president for instance so perhpas we should be discussing his skill at opening fetes or whatever it is the queen does. They are not going to make eating whale meat compulsory so we can discuss how horrific it would be to make vegetarians eat it. The list is endless and of course the best part is that the harder they deny something the truer it must be! Dalai Lama to be head of the C of E perhaps.
Dear 9.19,
How silly of me. The penny has dropped. You think people should be allowed to cheat on their taxes. All this steam about having to let "snoopers" in to your home amounts to no more than saying you should be able to cheat and lie and get away with it. By the same token your employer should be forbidden from telling the revenue how much you earn if you don't want them to, your bank should not be allowed to tell them how much interest you get on your savings. Whats the difference? Thats really typical of people like you. Mock indignation at the thought of your tax liability being properly assessed because you think people should be allowed to cheat the system. We know what you stand for now.
no one suggested cheating on their taxes and its indicative of the left wingers to try and distort the thruth I started the post by saying that this bunch of morons we call a govt is set to increase your councill tax bill if you have things like DG patios and nice things I was told ohh this is just another internet rumour blah blah blah well i posted a link to the BBC webpage ( not actually renown for being right wing) so that proved my point that it was not just some internet urban legend, then someone suggested i explain how i thought the PDC should fund themselves I never put that forward now its turned around that im suggesting avoiding taxes Im not my point is that all you lot as will I will be paying lots more because we live in a nice area that excludes the drunk poster and the one who says they have been on benifits for a long time.
And yes it is in some papers as I said it would be. This govt has scerwed up over money and I dont think I should pay for their cock ups.
Going back to the original post, "have you heard that this labour govt is to employ inspectors to visit peoples houses..."
This labour government has said it has no intention of doing anything of the sort, as has been pointed out several times. Anything else they wont be doing you want to rant about
Dear 2:44
Your link to the BBC proves that the Gov't are brinning a new system in N Ireland, to replace one 30 years old, that favoured the rich over the poor.
It then goes on to say that there are no plans to do this in the UK.
Anything else you bring into this thread is opinion.
In my opinion if the gov't brings in a system that favours the poor over the rich, it's got my vote.
If your wondering, no, I am not poor.
its been reported that the inspectors ARE part of the labour parties plans as is the plan to pay more fro the nicer area ie less crime. I did not make these reports up they were harvested from the net and other sources. also Im glad your rich probably a solicitor or barrister god hope your not going to charge me for this. My family have worked bloody hard for all they have and its not right to let lazy arrogant wasters have their money, thats does not say that as in every society the weak and needy need to be looked after they do Im all fgor a benevolant society but there is limits.
Just thought. Are you geographically challenged? Do you think Swanage is over in Northern Ireland where this scheme is being introduced.
"harvested from the net and other sources"
try:
www.thisismoney.co.uk
www.communities.gov.uk
www.conservative.com
www.voa.gov.uk
The Sun
The Mail
The Guardian
The Indepandent
What I mainly found was SHOCK HORROR TERROR, and then in the last paragraph a gov't spokesman denying the previous 1000 words.
Possibly the most telling comment was along the lines of:
these new suggestions are only raising the fines. The VOA's have had the right to enter and photograph peoples' homes since Community charge was bought in in 1993.
Something to do with inflation?
This scheme for Northern Ireland is beginning to look more and more attractive. If a council can charge more if it does its job properly and runs good schools, keeps crime down, keeps the place clean, it will be able to charge more. If it does not do its job properly its income will be reduced. Sounds like an old fashioned market economy to me. Payment to the council by results.
A local income tax would be fairer in many ways and I am surprised nobody has suggested one.
challenged only by people like you who challenge my belief in a sensible society, do the govt and all other bodies do test runs say trial periods or areas, thats perhaps what NI is? also if the local council charged more how would the xtra be destributed ? libaries police fire just a thought
sensible society?
The N Ireland scheme is to right 30 years of the poor paying too much compared to the rich.
Local Income Tax, paid to local gov't - thta's sense.
What I love about threads like this is the surrealism. First theres the idea that this government is somehow left wing when as everybody knows Blair foisted a sort of watered down Thatcherism on the Labour Party in return for making them electable. Then there is the idea that after years of campaigning against the state spying on its citizens the left are now in favour of it.
The best part is the way the person who started the thread reported what the government said it will not be doing as something they will be doing and then cheekily tells us that its in several newspapers, all of which it turns out say the government wont be doing this when you actually read them. Poster must be a student of Orwell's double talk, better means worse etc. Keep it up cheeky chappie. Resist the temptation to say you did not read the whole story. As Goebbels pointed out if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth. (He will accuse me of that now)
Sorry, but I had to give up at the first part of that comment.
Someone was trying to say that Noo Labour are left wing?
There was a lot about the anti Labour brigade, but our Gov't is Labour, just because you have a go at the opposition doesnt make you a labour supporter.
I wonder if you've missed the point that this is all (nearly) media spin.
Here's a thought - if people arent ill, we dont need Doctors.
If people dont get in trouble we dont need lawyers.
etc, etc
How do all these journalists stay in work?
dear 7.09
What you must remember about goverment is that what you get out is what you put in. More tax in = more spent. Less tax in = crap services or everyone having to buy services elsewhere. Theres no such thing as a free lunch.
Even the story on www.conservatives.com says "Labour is quietly pushing new laws through Parliament to give council tax inspectors in Northern Ireland the right to enter home" so I fear our friend is indeed a trifle geographically challenged. Write out 100 times Swanage is in England, not Northern Ireland in playtime please.
Ah, coincidence.
I posted the conservative link on this thread earlier, along with a few others.
Now I may be wrong, but it seems that you've picked the most controversial part of a rather partisan website.
With my posting I gave people a chance to look at differnet sources and make a, somewhat, informed choice.
If you'd read a few of the other posts you'd have discovered that VOA's have had the right to enter houses since 1993.
The original poster did not name his source for this story. If I was to suggest it was conservatives.com you would say I had a suspicious mind. Fleet street seems to have picked up the story from there as well and then phoned the government for a rebuttal. After all why go to the trouble of going out to look for stories when central office beams them straight to your computer screen.
Go back to 7:41
I'll help a little here:
without news there are no journalists
This is not news. There are no changes planned during this gov't.
The next Gov't ....., sorry I can't read the future
Its quite funny really, the person who started this thread, and ones like it, finds some emotive claim on www.conservatives.com and puts it here in the hope of stimulating debate over the supposed issue. Unfortunately he rushes in without bothering to check his facts so all we get is people checking them out and wearily pointing out that the whole thing is nothing more than a piece of propaganda. The mistake of course is to take it seriously to begin with.
In this case he made indignant noises about "the implications on personal freedom" of councils being able to evaluate home improvements in Northern Ireland. Not that he is in favour of people being able to lie and cheat to get out of paying the right amount of tax of course.
Why is it that the so called "Right Wing" are always shouting down what this government has achieved? 9 years of solid steady economic progress, no nasty shocks.
No huge interest rates hoists.
As the OECD stated ther last ten years have been a Paragon of economic stability.
That makes me wonder? How many of these right wingers will vote when they stop to think of the mortgage interest rates they could be paying under the auspices of Mr Cameron one of the Black Wednesday team? What was it?.....15%
Hell of a lot will lose their homes, as they did last time while those with the hard stuff bought up valuable homes for a song, (Recall the Mantra? Is he one of us?)
I am still waiting for the very brave right winger to explain to us all, the famous Tory mantra when talking about the 4 million unemployed:
"Its a price worth Paying" Any help in explaining this for the man in the street?
i have only 5 mins till its lights out but what has the last 9 yrs bought us ummmm god knows how many devious tax rises, poor NHS poor schools, and ohhh yes afganistan and iraq also attached to those 7/7 loss of power to EU plus many other things but chew the fat on those good night.
Dear 9.40,
Its good to have you onside with the left over the Afghan and Iraq wars. In this country it was the left that spoke out against Blair's participation in criminal US imperialism from the start but the tories supported it.
I trust I am not missrepresenting you and that you were not in favour of the war until the US started loosing.
As someone who was using the NHS in '93 and is using it now, my experience says that it SOOOOOOOOO much better now than then.
Tax rates have only gone above the tory high in the last few months - but our services are better.
The war's been answered.
Moves by the UK into deeper EU integration - all bar 1 signed by Tories under a Tory gov't.
I was thinking of posting a comment that asked most of us to totally ignore ignorant postings.
But then I realised that most of the postings that have a bit of life are peppered with ignorant postings.
Where do we go?
so people who dont share your views are ignorant? nice to see your true colours, also it all very well shouting about what yopu think is good that this govt has done over the last 9 yrs I just pointed out some of the bad things they have done as for the NHS in 93 I will beg to differ as the same in education. plus all the stealth taxes im sur you gaurdian reading sundried tomatoe types will make some bull up about this that and the other bottom line my familly and lots of others are worse off NOW, just a local point to discuss why do we only have our bins emptied fortnightly now and why less police on the beat why more antisocial crime? do you left wingers meet up and plan your responses on here probably at the local con club after all they serve cheap drinks and most left wingers are 2 faced would join just for the cheap booze and dis the cons behind their backs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6103290.stm
as for 93 does this look good?
Dear 1:10
All ignorant means is
having a lack of knowledge
Taht covers all of us , in one respect or another.
If the conservatives are so good at running public services why were they chucked out in 1997 on exactly this point? Unfortunately the nhs don't offer a cure for ammnesia.
Perhaps "stealth taxes" which simply means any form of indirect taxation, have come into vogue because of the hysteria that was stirred up over income tax when the burden on the better off was reduced by a huge amount. Ordinary people did not notice a lot of difference as their NI contributions went up to compensate. VAT is the biggest stealth tax of them all and someone obviously need reminding who increased it from 8 to 17.5%.
By the way there are drawbacks to the indvidual freedom argument which is where this thread started. Just be thankful that we don't enjoy the freedom to bear arms here. Gun murders in the UK are about 100 a year, in the US they are 14,000. Thanks to our nanny state road safety campaigns you are far less likely to die in a car accident here as well. They manage to kill 40,000 a year there, here its 3,500.
Dear 1.10 am,
Thanks for keeping us amused. I love the idea that only socialists eat sun dried tomatoes. Does the opposite apply? Does the conversation in the Swanage Working Mens Club, aka Conservative club, revolve round wondering what to do with the coal thats been in the bath tub for the last 30 years. Is the health of the late General Gordon of Khartoum drunk in brown ale by the members.
I suppose that behind the fun and games its the thought of anyone stepping outside the box that upsets you. Are you really a very old fashioned marxist? Were you brought up to think that the middle class only exist to exploit the poor workers and that anyone who does not behave according to this stereotype is a freak? I used to listen to exactly the same attacks on middle class labour party members from a Trotskyite who always claimed his family had been "down pit" in Yorkshire for generations. you didn't go to school in Barnsley did you?
again you do not address the points I raised about local problems skated over the web link re NHS and a few comments on the radio today "morale at it LOWEST ever level" lack of services crippling budgets job cuts etc etc , issued by con central office ummmm no by gp's and NHS workers. I bet theres a insult to right wingers in there somewhere just answer the bloody question why if labour is so good why is this happening today, and to the person? who said about gun crime in the uk is there not something like a 5.15 to 1 ratio in poulation compared to the usa? also as guns are more readliy available perhaps that accounts for the high numbers, and did I bring up gun culture?
No you didn't bring up gun culture, I did. If you can use a tread that purports to be about the acceptibility of council officials having the freedom to enter your house to discuss the NHS and dustbin emptying I can raise the flip side of individual freedom to own guns. The US population is about 5 times ours but their rate of gun murders is 50 times as high as ours. So much for freedom to bear arms.
As I have already asked, if the tories are so bloody wonderful at running public services why were they slung out for making such a mess of them? Answer that question please.
By the way are you saying Tony Blair is responsible for PDC deciding to empty dustbins fortnightly? Does he appear in your dreams and tell you?
NHS morale is low because of this right wing government's misguided plans to privatise large parts of the service.
NHS morale is low because of this right wing government's misguided plans to privatise large parts of the service.
bloody hell what a load of tosh 9 years of this govt and thats the only thing you can say, it seems 9 yrs of good times (if any) can be used and when its bad its the others fault just another quote for you re the great NHS
The government paints a rosy picture, but the reality is very different, with many patients left with a nasty taste in their mouths
Neil Fowler, Which?
and what i meant by the bin comment its the govt who funds most councill and its fudanmentaly a way to save money, but i still love the people who say the NHS is better today thats just 1 example of a labour govt.
So, the tories were thrown out for messing up the public services, you are telling us New Labour has done the same thing now. Any suggestions for who should be running them.
Dear Tosh,
How silly of me. Those NHS trade union officials who have been telling any reporter who would listen that lack of resources is causing redundancies were doing so in the hope of getting a tory government with a programme of £20 billion of spending cuts up its sleeve into office at the next election. It took ne a little while to realise that, but you saw it at once. Thats very smart of you as it is by no means an obvious conclusion.
Dear Tosh,
It aint just me, its the Telegraph that says the cause of the low morale thats brought thousands of health workers onto the streets is Blairs right wing privatisation plans.
They say "Thousands of doctors, nurses and other NHS workers gathered outside Parliament today to protest against budget cuts and the pace of health service reform.
The demonstration, (was) organised by unions and anti-privatisation pressure groups."
Just for once I won't argue with the Telegraph.
Its as clear as daylight that the deficiencies of this government are because it is too far to the right. Blair is about the only politician left who still clings to the belief that private companies can do everything better.
Just a thought,
When Labour came to power there were approx a third of a million nurses, there are now half a million.
By the way the Doctors, who can now earn up to £250,000 a yr, don't seem to P'd off.
Dear 3:52
compare how Arsenal Footie club rebuilt their stadium with how the FA are rebuilding theirs.
I'll grant you that one. The private sector can have all the sports grounds. No more cash from the lottery though I'm afraid, thats public money.
Ignoring the reality of Wembly, the idea of a national stadium, that's 'class'.
That's public, why no lottery funding?
Sports are a major entertainment industry with millions of pounds coming from TV rights. Other big entertainment companies dont get lottery money for their premises. The only thing that distinuishes a professional sports team from a record company is that the former has a geographical name. If EMI changed its name to Hayes and Southall Entertainment should it have lottery money for a new record factory? Should Philips become Eindhoven Records? If sports businesses want somewhere to perform they have the money to pay for it. The purpose of Wembley stadium is to give them neutral ground for the most money spinning events so really it has the least claim on public money.
I agree with your general point, but only on a fotball club being the euiv of EMI etc.
Wembly is the national stadium. The England team is not the same as a business.
The TV monies are re-distributed (unfairly) to the footie clubs.
That's not quite the EMI business model.
We've rather gone off the thread but Newark FC have got lottery money to develop the community.
Next I found
http://www.sportengland.org/index/get_funding/funding_case_studies.htm
Tonnes of lottery money goes into sport, why cut out the big boys?
Any number of very rich sportspeople have set up charities.
Ooh how Edwardian.
The Mail on Sunday is running the original story again saying more than half the homes will have a tax rise. Rather a case of the glass being half empty rather than half full as the other half will have a tax cut but no matter. As we all know stories about tax increases are a vote looser it remains to be seen whether Blair will be able to slip this draught of poison into Gordon's chalice before he is dragged screaming out of No. 10.
if you have MORE than half how can the % thats left be a half? is my maths that bad?
No, but your attention to detail is.
We are getting very literal here. More than half can simply be 50.0001% but a little journalistic hyperbole and it sounds like an overwhelming majority.
I read the story in the Mail on Sunday. It is the usual "shock horror" gibberish. It says that the government will use computers to work out how much property tax to pay as if this was some terrible threat. What would it prefer, calculations made on the back of old betting slips? How do they think other taxes are calculated?
I imagine a penny dropped in Fleet Street when they realised the nice neighbourhoods and leafy suburbs threatened with higher payments were exactly where all the hard working journalists and editors live. What a nasty shock for them!
surely if 50.0001% are worse of half canot be better off so how can you say more than half will be worse off but half will be better off, play the game its better to say a larger % will be worse off thats the long and short of it.
If the majority pay more tax that means there is more revenue to be spent or another tax can be reduced. Its not as if tax revenue was put in a very large piggy bank.
The story put by the tory party and loyally echoed by the Mail rants on about people who make home improvements being "penalised". If thats so why should people who live in dearer property be penalised for being able to afford a better house. The logical answer of that line of thought is to return to the poll tax of course. You can go on and on. Why should people who earn more be penalised by paying more income tax, why should people who make shrewd investments be penalised by having to pay capital gains tax. Why should companies that are well run be penalised by having to pay more tax on their profits than ones that dont make s much money.
Got it! Only the poor should be taxed as they have failed to make anything of the opportunities life offers them, may not have worked hard and are just general all round failures. And best of all they don't usually bother to vote. End of problem.
just like the left, never say what they really mean.
All most interesting but lets go back tothe original post which said "have you heard that this labour govt is to employ inspectors to visit peoples houses to see if they have increased the value of their homes by adding patios conservatories and even double glazing big fines if you do not alow access"
Could the poster give us his opinion of this proposal. It was offered without comment. We have all done our best GCSE media studies analysis on the story but it would be nice to know what the posters opinion is
I find his opinion very clear, perhaps you need to interpret a little.
You may think his meaning is clear but if you make a comment on it he will accuse you of misrepresenting him. The meaning is implied and I dont see why he should not spell out exactly what he means. When I said he was suggesting that people who increase the value of their homes should be able to evade a tax increase he denied that was what he meant.
Then again, we could have the original posting as it should have been if the poster wanted to tell the truth. I have added the clarification in brackets
"have you heard (the conservatives have put round a story) that this labour govt is to (go on allowing councils to) employ inspectors to visit peoples houses to see if they have increased the value of their homes by adding patios conservatories and even double glazing big fines if you do not alow access"
Scarey or what?
Or if he had wanted to be a bit less economical with the truth we would have had:
"have you heard that this labour govt (says it is not going) to employ inspectors to visit peoples houses to see if they have increased the value of their homes by adding patios conservatories and even double glazing big fines if you do not alow access"
Not as good as a juicy fiction is it.
Quite right to.
But I would guess that the original posting is most peoples idea of what's going on.
That poses a bit of a dilemma. The original poster did not take the trouble to establish the provenance of the story. Does that make him a fool for believing it without making any investigation, or a villian for trying to con the rest of us with a piece of propaganda? The fact that he has reduced the discussion to sniping at whatever he imagines to be the political position of other posters and refuses to enlarge on the issues he thinks are involved suggests the latter.
come on guys n gals only a couple more posts and we hit the ton wow my 1st century yessssssssssss
well excluding other thing tehehe
Is that humour?
Do you really expect a sensible, open debate in an anonymous public forum?
It's bad enough in Swanage trying to have a quiet conversation in a pub, everybody feels they can join in.
To expect to do so on an anonymous forum is silly
did you not learn anything when you were 1st introduced into the pub scene? you DO not discuss politics or religion in pubs that is a BIG no no, then add the subject of wives and fav fotties teams it really only leaves the weather
And 1123 it was an attempt at humour do you know what humour is? at least I have a go at it?
10:03 is 10:13,assuming that he's one of the proteaganist on this thread, then taking the Pub as a metaphor for: in public.
S/He's one of those people who have no opinions at all when S/He's mixing with people.
However, give Him/Her an anonymous outlet and watch out.
i was saying it is not the DONE thing to mention those things in a pub, not wether anyone had an opinion perhaps you are the type who gets everyones back up and walks away. but then again perhaps you dont mix with real people and see real life as it is.
define real life
Dear 2:57
You said that you do NOT discuss .....
That has nothing to do with the DONE thing.
The latter is about manners, not what really happens.
I'd never heard of it not being the done thing to discuss religion or politics in pubs. Always thought that was what they said about the officers mess and that was because they were all tory anglicans anyway.
When I lived in London I used to meet fellow leftists in the pub every Friday night to talk politics and, come to think of it Labout party meetings were usually preceded by a pre-meeting in a pub to discuss which way to vote and were always followed up with a drink.
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