- Could we begin yet another thread for 'Swanage Bay Holiday Park Transition' - (subtitled 'The Never-Ending Story'!) even though I am sure many are growing weary of it? It HAS achieved more posts than any other in the history of SwanageView and is clearly an ongoing topic of discussion for the town. Thanks.
- 9:46 PM
Monday, February 01, 2010
Swanage Bayview Holiday Park Transition
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132 comments:
Went up to the park last week. Looks right run down and unkempt.
I understand that all the ground staff have been given paint and brushes and told to paint inside the vista centre.
Meanwhile the exterior is rotting and paint coming off in chunks. It is all cheap image-making by Darwin. Has the promised refurbishment of the awful loos by the Quarryman begun yet?
Where's our gym and sauna??
Sounds as though there has been a management shakeup up at the muni. Several heads have rolled.
Not that the customers have been told a dickiebird.
Sounds like business as usual!
gone a bit quite on this subject is that because everything is now sorted
No, things are still shambolic, efforts continue behind the scenes.
It is the closed season untill March 1st. So every one at home catching up on work there except a few of the committee who are working hard. Understand they (Darwin) have a training week for all their staff at the Vista this week and they are staying in a Hotel in Sandbanks. Can anyone confirm?
Lets hope its a 5* hotel in sandbanks and they have plenty of time to get used to what 5* facilities look like. Then they can instal them at SBV!!!!!!
Seriously, everyone here knows that I am determined to look on the bright side but even I have to admit I havent been very impressed with Darwins performance so far. Does anyone know if the required more than 51% of owners have objected to the proposed fee increase? Perhaps Darwins lack of action so far will serve us well - it will be difficult for them to argue to an arbitrator that they have improved facilities to justify incresed fees!
More then 51% have objected.Most say they will pay the fees in 2 instalments (march & september)even those who usually pay up front incase Darwin go under.I think the amount is £1434.44. Not sure but it is the amount calculated on the formular agreed in our licence with the council last year.
It would be of interest to attend as a trainee, and learn why this years site fee invoices are late being issued.
No doubt the training has included customer care. Hopefully OFT guidelines and Licence Agreements regarding holiday caravans were also discussed.
Invoices are not being issued. You have been told what to pay and when.
If you have paid 2009/10's sum (and you have objected to the fee increase) then you will be told as soon after March 1 whether it has gone to arbitration, and what you owe if arbitration is in favour of Darwin.
It's all been written to you. Can't you read? Darwin has spoken!!
Unfortunately, Darwins letter is not in accordance with my Licence and agreements made with STC. I understand Darwin have been informed of this.
I understand arbitration is between 2 or more people. How are Darwin going to arbitration on their own? Why do I need to go to arbitration when I have a licence which states exactly how fees should be calculated? I will be paying 2010/11 fees which have been calculated according to the formular
There is a protocol for arbitration in this case, agreed between BH&HPA and the Office of Fair Trading. I am sure the Owners' Association will be able to elaborate.
The arbitration is simple, and quite quick, as far as I understand it; if 51% of the Owners object in writing, then the reasons for an increase must be adjudged as fair or not according conditions I do not have to hand. In other words, the owners have called out Darwin to justify the fees increase and this panel, or body, through BH&HPA, must decide. It is my understanding that certain arbitration decisions are final and cannot be appealed; I do not know if this falls under that condition.
Again, the Owners' Association will know.
'I understand arbitration is between 2 or more people'
It can also be between two or more groups which, when treated as collective nouns, are each considered as singular. It works the same way. In this case, 51+% of owners is the Plaintive; Darwin is the Defendant. One Plaintive vs. 1 Defendant.
Darwin has informed me, as one who is retaining the old licence, that I cannot pay in two installments, as I did last year. It's deja vu, all over again!
But if I sign the new one now, I can. Seems like restrictive practices going on here. Funny old world, in't? I guess the Town Clerk left his play book behind for Darwin to follow.....
So much for better public relations and customer relationship from the private sector!
Darwin told me that too, but in a previous letter said ALL the owners could pay in 2 installments if they chose. Each letter seems to contradict the one before. Perhaps I should just cut and paste until I have one I like the sound of!!!
You can stay on the old licence and still pay in instalments. Darwin are bound by the old licence and any agreements with STC.
'You can stay on the old licence and still pay in instalments. Darwin are bound by the old licence and any agreements with STC.'
Thanks for this.....is this the advice that the Association is recommending to its members? I think I will do it too.
I don't think the owners association will go to arbitration. The BH&HPA are a park owners association for Darwin types not for caravan owners. You cann't sign a licence and then argue about it.
You can when one party does not live up to its side of the licence.
I note the new website has been removed - a new one is being prepared, so it says.
I also note that letting fees for 2010 have not been fixed or published.
The letting season begins in a few weeks. How can they do this?
In the tourist trade, success in business is 100% marketing. That means touching base with every step of the process, from product design to client outreach to final sale. Darwin is not marketing this expensive investment on behalf of its investors. Perhaps Darwin wants to force as many owners to leave under duress, so that it can snap up the properties at distress prices, until it has a substantial hire fleet, unencumbered by owners and their association?
I have heard that Darwin has offered some owners with caravans for sale just over half the asking price. I hope they have told Darwin where to go.
Meanwhile, Darwin is doing nothing to market owners' used caravans, even though it wants 20% for the privilege. Is Darwin trying to force them to sell to them because they won't market it to outsiders?
Has anybody seen or heard anything about the gym and sauna? Are they being built or refurbished now that the site is closed for six weeks?
Let's hope this is all just part of the teething problems, but I am scepticle as the letters I have been receiving from Victoria Brennan, on behalf of Darwin, over perfectly normal topics, have been contradictory (as HappyCamper has also experienced) and have contained veiled threats (if such and such isn't complied with, such and such will happen.. etc...even though I have always fully complied with the terms of the license).
0% good marketing from Darwin. I haven't had one bit of good news from them. Not one.
I refer to the rather bullish posting made at 7.50 PM about 10 postings ago.
It now seems that SBV think Darwin Head Office will be issuing invoices, but Darwin Head Office says SBV is to issue them, so the 7.50pm post may be 100% wrong.The SBV Duty Manager is not on duty for a few days so cannot help.
I really would like a proper, dated, numbered invoice for my records. I would have thought Darwins accountants would also find such invoices expedient in their dealings with HM Revenue and Customs.
Is there some rule, regulation or law which states that until an invoice it issued, there is no need to pay, particularly if it is unclear exactly what you should pay? If not, one would expect that natural justice would uphold anyone who was challenged for non-payment of a non-invoiced bill.
Especially this year, when caravans will be billed in different ways and in different amount: those who signed the new license can pay in two installments, or pay in one and get a discount; those who have kept the old license have to pay all at once; and those who objected will pay 2009/10's amount until arbitrated, subject to whether or not they objected to the site fees.........
I agree with the previous poster that I expect a proper invoice (with VAT properly recorded) and a proper receipt when paid. It is one thing Alan Leeson was very good about - there, a compliment!
Is it up to each owner to determine which group we fall into? I see a nightmarish situation coming up. If Darwin goes all legalistic over what people do pay, and threaten those who do not pony up without the benefit of an invoice, a judge will laugh Darwin out of court. Silly, lazy, clueless Darwin! Silly, lazy clueless front desk!
My lawyer is monitoring this very closely. I hope the Association is doing the same.
This is being referred to Dorset Trading Standards.
I will be paying £1434-44 on the 1st March. I'm keeping my old licence and will stick to the content. I will not wait for an invoice. Arbitration does not come into it whatever Darwin say. OFT did not acept arbitration or the new BH&HPA licence yet, nor has it turned it down yet.Darwin can't go to arbitration as we are keeping to our licence.
Looks as though I will do the same, sans invoice. I want to keep above board and let Darwin sink itself over this.
Has any owner expressed an interest in letting their caravan through Darwin? I have heard there are hardly any to be hired. Not surprising since Darwin has not published any tariffs, and maintains the right to discount as it sees fit - all for 20% plus VAT commission. At least they are not charging for the activity pass that STC did - what a rip-off that was! And, if you have privately let your caravan, you have to hand over 15% commission to Darwin for doing nothing.
It's all part of the Darwin Magic!!
Darwin Magic! An appropriate spell would be "Izzy Whizzy, Let's Get Bizzy and get the invoices in the post."
Darwin's Theory of Evolution (a.k.a. 'Break Down the Owners' Resistance'):
-Buy a Holiday Park with no conditions except TUPE for Council employees.
-Issue a new site license, whether owners want it or not.
-Ignore the old license.
-Raise site fees without consultation.
-Raise charges without consultation.
-Do no marketing to let or sell owners' caravans, but charge them more for this anyway even if they let or sell it.
-Allow facilities to deteriorate or be removed. Cut costs to the bone.
-Ignore owners. Get them panicking.
-Offer panicking owners desultory amounts for their caravans.
-Gradually push unhappy and non-compliant owners off site.
-Complete the takeover, according to the 'Darwin Theory of Evolution' (a.k.a. 'Survival of the Greediest').
Voila! Mega money for the investors.
It will be interesting to see whether Darwin goes 'legal' against some owners on, and after, March 1st - owners know what I refer to!
Interesting times indeed!!!! I cant wait for site to open again and the season to start. If the owners association hold one of their "open" meetings I may even take the time to attend - if they can book a room. Early fireworks perhaps?
Hi, HappyCamper, nice to see you post again.
I expect the Owners' Association has been beavering away - there is certainly a lot to sink their teeth into at the moment. Can't see the need for fireworks at a meeting since it should be apparent to all owners what has been going on.
There's nothing like a common foe to pull ranks together.
I have no foe at SBV. I simply want the Park operator to adhere to my legally binding Licence, Office of Fair Trading guidelines and Dorset Trading Standards advice.
Well, well, looks as though Darwin is recharging electricity at 15.27p per kw/h, which is higher than the rate charged by all suppliers.
I thought this is illegal, and they have to charge fairly (that is, they cannot make a profit from it).
They can only charge owners the price charged to them by the supplier + standing charge. Resale of electricity Act.I have not had a bill so I cann't comment on the price they are chargeing.
Bills are in the post. They went out yesterday.
Funny how they can send an electric bill but cann't get an invoice out. By useing common sence they could even have put it in the same envelope saveing 275 stamps !!!
They did. You will get site fees and electricity (and any other sundries like draindown) in the same envelope.
don't be silly far too easy, and cheaper, to put 2 invoices in one envelope.
Who suppliers the electric? E.O.N.?
Needs checking. Last bill 8.....latest 15.....per unit!!!! nearly double.
Here we go again. Anyone who buys electricity from an authorised supplier and sells it on cannot recover more than they paid originally. This includes caravan parks where you pay the park owner for electricity used.
Sounds like a matter for Dorset Trading Standards.
I am waiting for the postman with bated breath!! I am generally easy to please - a place in the sun to chill out away from the day job, good beer, decent facilities, no hassle. Im trying to think positively but its difficult!!! I shall be on the site the first weekend its open, hoping for no burst pipes, no rain and refurbished pool, sauna and gym. Unfortunately I expect to find no improvements, a chill in the air and an owners association meeting to gnash my teeth in. To add insult to injury, if it drives me to drink I will probably have to walk into town to find real ale - I bet the beer in the quarrymans bar is still fit only to clean the floor with!!!!!!!
Happycamper, I hope everything is ok at your caravan! I was there right up to the end of the season - I was twice frozen up, as were whole sections of the park (the underground pipes froze). If people did not drain down, they may have a few surprises awaiting their return.
Quite frankly, I think the park should close at Christmas, and that every caravan should be drained down as part of the fees - at a reduced rate since they have the volume of trade. I was there when mine was done - two men - 10 minutes. Thirty quid sounds about right.
The beer is the same stuff - but the exercise will be good for you! If Watneys Red was still made, I'd expect to find it up at the Quarryman...
No gym, no sauna...there is no idea when or if these will be opened..sic transit gloria mundi....
Fees are due in five days! Get ready............
We did drain down as intructed by the plumber last year. Fingers crossed!!!!!! Christmas in Swanage is lovely, I wouldnt want to loose the option of staying on site and dressing up for New Year, though sadly far too cold this year. The exercise will be good for me - flippin cheek!!! Walking always seems a good idea on the way to the pub, much less on the way back. Perhaps Darwin could be persuaded to set up a courtesy bus to the Square and Compass...........
Have you ever tried walking Priests' Way all the way to the Square and Compass in Worth? Great Sunday lunch walk from SBV! But a bit harder getting home! Best wo take the W&D back when it runs.
I was told today that there are no known plans to update the gym or sauna. I suppose walking to and from the pub will have to be our exercise!
Walking boots ready and waiting!!!!
I got an electricity bill from Darwin today, no details of amount per kw/h, just meter reading and the amount they want. Needless to say I shall be (politely) asking for a more detailed breakdown of charges, hope everyone else is too!
It is a legal requirement that the unit price and rate of VAT is shown.
You will be interested to learn that the Site Manager and Darwin bigwigs are up at the BH&HPA conclave, and have been since yesterday. She won't be back until the weekend and any matters have to await her return. Any questions or concerns have to await her return. So I was told.
'It is a legal requirement that the unit price and rate of VAT is shown.'
So what? Since when did this matter?
I suspect there is a little service charge in there.
Also a company VAT registration number must be shown. The cost has increased by 97%, there are no payment terms and there is no mention as to whom a cheque is payable.
I enquired and was told that Darwin vetted these accounts and invoices. This company is run by incompetent neophytes.
Does anyone know whether the 51% of owners have objected to the fee increase? Or how we will be told?
I know, straight from the horse's mouth.
You, too, can phone Reception to find out.
If the Association hasn't heard, I suggest that they enquire asap.
Hey, theres a rumour going around. There won't be arbitration because fewer than 51% objected. So it's pay up in full on Monday.
Does anybody know why not enough objections were sent? Everybody I spoke with said that the association had this sewn up??? Whats up Association?
If the association didnt get a group objection in they might just as well give up and disband now!! Surely they couldnt mess that one up!! Perhaps not enough people elected to have the association speak for them, then failed to put their own independant objection in. Stranger and stranger.
1st March tomorrow so next episode of saga to follow very soon. I cant wait.........
Hi Happycamper-
Somebody 'in the know' told me that Darwin thinks the letters from owners didn't word the objection satisfactorily. Hence it determines there are fewer than the required 51% of 'valid' letters of objection. Something about the wording the association told its members to use isn't good enough? Oh dear, if that is true I see a bit of a barney coming up! Although I am not in the Association, if I were I would say its time to hire a lawyer, if indeed the wording was not up to snuff, or challenge it in court. Or admit to my members that I messed up (a bit like the last Unite/BA strike ballot that got tossed out...). One side will win this....the other will lose - big time!
I know that my objection was accepted because it was drafted by my lawyer, but I am told I will have to pay in full tomorrow anyway, which I will do (well, the first of two installments!) knowing that I can adjust it in the second installment if it changes on appeal, or something. Seems the best way to keep above the @#$% that is about to hit the proverbial!
Fancy a meander sometime over to the the Square and Compass round about Easter time to compare notes??
80+% Objected to the fees. DTS have accepted an Afidavit to that efect. Darwin have asked to meet.
I presume by 80% you mean 80% of the Association members - roughly what per cent of all owners would that imply? I would guess easily over 51% - am I right? In which case, great that DTS is on the case. I presume we still pay according to our license and last year's fees tomorrow.
80+% of OWNERS Voted to regect fees
So what happens next? No one on site knows anything about this.
Honestly!! What next??
Highly Bemused Camper - I never refuse an excuse to while away an hour or two at the Square and Compass!!!! Lets hope we will be drinking to a positive outcome of what appears to be developing into an unholy mess. Rumour upon rumour - perhaps Darwin are planning on going into the soap opera business next, although they will have to think up a more credible storyline!
Well, well, Darwin's 'wonderful' letting scheme begins this coming weekend. There is still not a website up to draw in the punters. The front desk is utterly overwhelmed and unable to book anybody. I understand hardly any owners have chosen to take part. Why should they? There is nothing in it for them except more money up front to get on the scheme. Who can trust these bloodsucking leeches with their investment?
Darwinpim's (Bloomberg DRLPRFN GU) NAV value has steadily risen by over 16% over the launch price in Jan 2009, and has returned an annual dividend of 2.31%. Not too shabby in this economic environment.
I just had a brain wave (!) after reading a post elsewhere.
It made the case that Darwin could recoup as much as 1.8 million over three years from the Council if the Owner's block site fee increases. Chump change to Darwin, but......
......if that happens, then Darwin is quids in. Not only will it receive a tidy income from the existing site fees and its lettings (and so far it doesn't seem to have any plans for investment in the infrastructure), it will, in effect, be in a position to sell the property for a tidy profit after three years. (If it sells it to new owners in three years for just what it paid - 7.25 million - then it will have made 1.8 million on its capital investment just by letting it tick over.) If I were Darwin, I would absolutely HOPE that the Owners win their present site fee increase challenge, suck up reduced profits for three years (but enough to satisfy my investors), and then sell it for what it bought it for, or more, without that agreement the Council made.
But I don't think three years is the point where Darwin should sell, for there is a better date: the date when fewer than 51% of the owners have the old license and have the majority to object. When this is the case, Darwin will be able to increase site fees under the terms of its new, more Darwin-friendly license, and will then be in a position to retain the Park, raise fees and profits, or sell it at a huge premium because there are fewer restrictions on profit.
Brilliant!!!
Owners - you very well may win in the short term (Darwin should surreptitiously facilitate this) but you will ultimately lose. I suggest you calculate when fewer than 51% of old licenses are still in effect - that's the date to mark in your diary when Darwin has the advantage.
It might be a clever move to sell up and invest in Darwin, an appreciating investment unlike a caravan which is a depreciating one. You could always hire one instead.
They would still have to comply with existing licences and OFT 734 & Unfare terms in contracts Legistration. It would not matter about 51% Because it does state in the licence how fees will be levid. By then the Goverment would have brought in The Caravan Site Law ( Supported by all parties)
12.29 Here are a few questions for you arising from your interesting post:
From your standpoint and knowledge of these issues, under what conditions may a caravan site company raise (or indeed lower) net-of-tax site fees? Cost of living/RPI? What about maintenance and site improvements? Labour cost increases? Costs adjustments for third party suppliers (water, sewer)??
How are site owners expected to operate a for profit business if their ability to improve their 'product' is restricted by conditions of license or a new Act of Parliament? Will owners have the same rights as, say, do most flat owners have over the shared maintenance charges?
How do you see this play out?
I would be grateful if you have a link to the proposed Parliamentary Act that you cite. Thank you.
"How are site owners expected to operate a for profit business if their ability to improve their 'product' is restricted by conditions of license."
Any publican will be able to have a detailed and informed discussion with you regarding business and licensing issues.
Why not show a little diligence and do your own research ?
'Why not show a little diligence and do your own research ?'
I was not asking for you to provide an answer. The question is clearly rhetorical.
Might you possess an MBA from Harvard?
"Might you possess an MBA from Harvard?"
No. That one doesn't read the blog
"That one doesn't read the blog"
Ha! The plot thickens......
Does anybody know why we haven't been issued passes to the pool this year? Are they honoring last year's passes, or do we have to pay to use the pool?
Also any news about how the gym and sauna are getting on?
Has anybody had any freeze-up damage?
Oh has anybody heard the outcome from the fees objection? Did we get over 50% of members objecting? The front office says we didn't.
I heard that Darwin can claim back up to 50000 pounds from Swanage if it has to go into a legal battle with the owners. It sounds as though Darwin has an incentive to 'go legal' if necessary.
Several old caravans were taken off the site today.
STC indemnified Darwin £1.8million if they cann't put up fees because of owners and £50k to fight a legal battle against the owners. STC know that to put up fees they would have to go against OFT. So it sounds as if they really sold the site for £5.4 million approx. Maybe they agreed al this so the S--t wouldn't hit the fan untill after the local elections this year?
We were on site last weekend. Last years passes are fine to use the pool. One receptionist gave me the usual form to fill out for new passes and said get it back asap - chatting with new manager later, she said dont bother with form, new passes will be issued "in a few months" and the old ones are fine till then. The Gym and sauna will be finished "soon" apparently!!!! Seems nothing much changes. Some empty pitches - another chat with another member of staff, said no takers for vacant pitches, ?? will be used for letting fleet??? watch this space!!
What are the association saying about the proposed fees increse battle - does anyone know? Sounds from the last few posts as if Darwin are onto a win-win situation here. I seem to remember musing on that one some time ago - if we took this all too seriously it would drive us all mad. Then we could join the lunatics in charge of the asylum and all live happily ever after........................
Ah Happycamper I missed ye on yer stay to get that pint up the Square and Compass! Your comments tally with what I have heard, too. Best to enjoy the place and let those others do what they want. I agree Darwin will win out and I look forward to finding out what the Darwin brand is all about. At the moment its all ticking over like last year - except for the lit gas fire in the Vista!
Seems the park is on the fiddle with electricity recharging.
Check yer bills carefully and ask.
Didnt get up to the Square and Compass - was a flying visit to make sure no freeze damage. Easter for definate!! I have requested a properly itemised electricity bill but so far the silence is deafening. Incidently, they lost no time in increasing the price of gas bottles and they want paying for it on the spot. No lack of efficiency there!!!! Seriously,it would be a shame to let all these twists and turns spoil the pleasure of being in Swanage in the sunshine. I cant bring myself to get in a lather about every little subsection A and clause B. I would just like to sample some of the promised "festival going experience"!!!
Hello HappyCamper-
I hope everything was ok with your van! There has been more than one plumber on site here all week!
What appears to have happened to the electricity bill is this....:
....at the time of transition of owners in October, STC closed its account with the electricity supplier (quite proper) and Darwin did not open a like-for-like account. Hence the rate charged per unit (Eon) jumped from 0.0802 per unit to the standard peak rates of 0.1801/day and 0.1217/night per unit. In December Darwin woke up to this error and switched to British Gas at a rate of 0.07930/unit, which is comparable with what STC paid before 15 Oct. Curiously, Darwin has produced a little chit indicating that the recharge is 0.0724 per unit - fine by me but it doesn't tally with the BG statement I was shown.
As far as I am concerned, this is a mistake on Darwin's part, not ours, and it should suck up the mistake and charge us per unit according to the rate last used by STC. They flatly refuse to do this, insisting we have to be recharged 'as is'. Putting that issue aside, I do object to paying the higher rate after the date in December, when the supplier's rate to Darwin dropped. Darwin should have read meters at that time, but didn't. However one views it, my bill is incorrect, but Darwin won't budge.
Incidentally I was told that it is all the fault of STC for increasing the rates at the changeover. Sorry, Darwin, no dice. YOU are responsible for your bills. Business 101.
Darwin now produces the VAT and Company Registration numbers on their invoices; what an amateurish mistake not to do this.
Lesson: investment trusts (like town councils) make lousy business managers. They need first rate site managers to deal with this minutiae of running SBV. Clearly one was not in charge when this happened, or Darwin would not allow her to do her job. Owners should not have to pay for this.
Van is good, Im pleased to say - just a couple of elbow joints underneath popped, easily sorted in a few minutes! I think others have not been so lucky though - as you say the plumber has been busy. Its an ill wind that blows no-one any good!!
I had quite a chat with the new manager when we were last down and she seemed more on the ball than the last one, dont know if she had any hand in the electricity bills. Has anyone seen an advertising for Darwin holidays?? I havent and I have been looking hard. Apparently they do not list their prices as they change from day to day depending on availability. An unusual way of doing business.............
.....which is why I will not participate in letting my caravan as I have done in previous years.
Only 10 have signed up - Darwin owns three - total of 13 caravans for letting so far. Darwin is trying to pick off vulnerable owners by offering very low amounts for their caravans.
Some of us saw this coming. I suggest that if at all possible people hang on until the economy brightens up after the next election and maybe look to sell at a fair price later. Don't panic right now unless you have to.
Good luck!
HappyCamper -
I have picked up the glossy 24 page full colour brochure covering all Darwin properties. Pick one up at reception when you are next down. Nice photos. My guess is that the website is down until there are enough caravans for hire to make it worthwhile and relevant. You are right about the sliding scale of hire prices. Book early = pay full whack. Book last minute = get a big reduction. The manager (I agree she is an improvement) has the power to determine what is charged. She can give the caravans away for little income to owners - the 'bums on seats are better than empty caravans' school of thought.
Here is the 'bottom line'.....
.....the site manager politely and honestly (for which I am grateful) told me that by upgrading my caravan to 'Darwin standards' (800-1000 pounds for new carpets, curtains and 'Darwin pack') and offering it for let from late May Bank Holiday until October 1, it is unlikely I will recoup the site fees and expenses. Go figure what I have decided NOT to do!
Darwin can buy new and used caravans for their little profit making venture, but they will not have mine!
Yes, I had a look at the glossy brochure - tried to negociate a discount for a visit at any one of the other parks (I like a bit of variety sometimes) but no luck!! Seems to me if there are very few letting units then there will not be enough visitors to support a revamp of the Vista complex. If the Vista is not revamped visitors will not be attracted to the park. Think we are in for a long wait for any improvements.
I am very glad I do not need to
sell or let my caravan - those who do must be having a very anxious time right now. I still believe there is enormous potential for everything to come right but it looks like being a long time coming!!!!
I agree with Happycamper that we may not see any improvements to the Vista for some time. I suspect that this is fine with SBVOA. Improvements cost money.
Darwin's core stategy is to break the power of the Owners' Association, either through challenging its actions in the courts, or getting the SBVOA on board behind the concept of 'producing profits for investors' and a 'quality experience for owners'. To achieve the latter, site fees simply have to go up according to market rates (or be subsidised for three years from STC rebates, followed by a large increase to take into account lapsed market rate increases when those rebates vanish).
Darwin can plan on taking a long term strategy as the park will, without much investment, continue to produce sufficient profit for investors largely through owners. They can do this until fewer than 50% of owners still retain the old licence, at which point the new licence will command the majority.
I find it 'interesting' to hear that SBVOA will receive correspondence from Darwin only through the latter's legal representatives. This situation is leaving the amateur theatrics of Swanage Town Council and is entering prime time, folks. In light of this, I strongly suggest SBVOA take out liability insurance to indemnify any actions taken on behalf of owners who have nominated SBVOA to represent them. Darwin will scrutinize every move and statement from SBVOA, you can be assured. Making rash, inflammatory and potentially dangerous statements is part and parcel of the SBVOA committee's legacy during the STC days, and the same committee members appear to be in charge. Perhaps they will be more cautious now.
Thankfully, I am not represented by SBVOA, but I do have all my correspondence with Darwin vetted by my barrister. I suggest owners consider the trust they wish to place in the Association. They can chose to represent themselves while remaining members of SBVOA as some 30 plus have done. It is your choice.
As you saw for your self at the meeting it was standing room only and NO ONE showed any discontent with the committee. Only a few are still serving on the committee the other members are in their first year. The SBVOA will win because they are right and English law will be upheld.Unless Darwin improve their customer service and treat them as the reason for Darwins existance they will slowly loose customers.Most of the present owners will not purchase another van on the site when their licence runs out. There are 20 odd pitches available.It used to be the most at any time was 3. Just goes to show
2.19
Er...the SBVOA is an unincorporated association, so how exactly do you propose that it takes out 'liability insurance'? It cannot, and even if it could, it would not need to. Because it as, as I said, an unincorporated assocation. Your comments have no relevance.
As for market rates, pull the other one its got bells on. You will not find a court in the land who would find in Darwin's favour if they based their argument for fee increases on market rates. Check with your barrister.
You are wrong on both counts. But it doesn't matter to me, as it doesn't affect me. Go about your business as you choose. As my mother said, 'You make your bed - you lie on it.'
Darwin would do well to listen to your mother's advice then!
I had a real chuckle at the post from Anonymous 6.20pm. "No-one at the meeting showed any discontent with the commitee" - well they wouldnt would they? they might have to get off their high horses and do something themselves if they upset the commitee!! Mind you, it would be difficult to make more of a hash of it if rumours are true and SBVOA have failed to make a valid objection to the fee increase. The silence on that subject is deafening. Its easy to strut around and make a big fuss at a meeting where everyone agrees with you, much more difficult to fight your corner against Darwins legal team. It may or may not be the case that their business plan was drawn up on the back of an envelope in an Islington coffee shop, but you can bet your bottom dollar their legal team know their business!!!! "SBVOA will win because they are right and English law will be upheld" - in fluffy bunny land perhaps, but in my experience, not necessarily in the real world.
I agree with Anonymous 2.19 - I am very thankful I have no dealings with the association. I can only hope for the sake of the members that some of the subscription fees have been spent on good legal advice and not on mince pies for the ill-fated xmas knees-up ................................
'There are 20 odd pitches available.It used to be the most at any time was 3. Just goes to show'
I won't argue with your other points, but won't you concede a little factor called the recession might have something to do with this?
Happycamper
You obviously have no idea what is going on. The silence is deafening for you because Darwin is not talking to you and you are not in the Association. If you were you would be better informed.
Recession? Not according to Darwin. They entered the industry cos they thought it would be recession proof. Have a look at their own publicity. Shows how wrong they were!
HappyCamper- where I stood at the back, the response to much of what was being said from the dais was met with a degree of scepticism and eyes rolling........and a lot wondered just what promises are being delivered. As you say, the lack of information about the fee challenge created a stir that was palpable....I know for a fact that Darwin's legal team will inform BVOA this week that it has rejected it over inadequate challenges - many were improperly phrased. BVOA will huff and puff but unless they can take it to court, bad luck. Darwin will be as adept at this as BA's legal team was in blocking the earlier strike through the courts. With 7.25 mil of investors' money, plus XXXX mil. of future profits at stake, they will be bloody ruthless. English justice prefers strong legal argument from professionals, not bleats of 'justice' from neophytes. My money is on Darwin, and I intend to have an excellent but legally proper relationship with them. So far they have treated me with immaculate propriety and have abided by the terms of my old license, which I have retained.
Roll on the summer! They say the weather will be fantastic!
'You obviously have no idea what is going on. The silence is deafening for you because Darwin is not talking to you and you are not in the Association. If you were you would be better informed.'
Ah, I have been waiting for this. These words speak volumes about the character of the individual who wrote them, and if they are from a member of BVOA, or even worse from a committee member,speak volumes about this organisation.
'Recession? Not according to Darwin. They entered the industry cos they thought it would be recession proof. Have a look at their own publicity. Shows how wrong they were!'
You appear to have no idea about the economy, or how major businesses are run.
Darwin will have the park running according to their business plan within three years. They can afford to ride out 20 or so empty plots. In fact, they can fill these with their hire fleet when they determine the market is right.
Or fill them when they embark on selling new caravans. The potential this park offers is quite stunning.
The silence I was refering to was that from the association. But then I suppose they would not want to advertise failure! I have communicated with Darwin on several occaisions and they have always been polite and informative. As I said on this blog ages back, I would rather get my information from the horses mouth than rely on the associations version of events.
The park will be dragged into the 21st century dispite the associations efforts and be the better for it. I suspect more and more owners will sever links with the association if they carry on as they are. Time perhaps to disband, chill out and enjoy the summer(surely the whole point of buying into the park in the first place)The next few years will be interesting!!!!
Some of the posts put on here by happycamper and his crew are becoming ridiculous. Have Darwin offered them a discount for posting this sycophantic drivel?
7.09 So since you are so much in the know, pray tell us whether Darwin has accepted the site fee objection??
Join BVO and find out. Instead of skulking at the bottom of the stairs listening.
Actually I found out from Darwin today. In writing.
I don't skulk. I signed in just like you. Are you a member of the committee, by chance? I'd like to know.
Do I sense a degree of piqueness here:
'Join BVO and find out. Instead of skulking at the bottom of the stairs listening.'
How refreshing. How enlightened. How welcoming.
I have twice sent emails to join the association since January. Both emails were never answered. Has the Yahoo email addressed changed, or do you not answer emails? Or do you not answer certain emails? I know both emails were opened. Interesting how both were ignored. I rather gave up on it.
Why isn't there notice board space with this sort of basic info up in the Vista? If Darwin now recognizes BVOA, it should permit this. Have you asked for this?
Don't say that I could have signed up at the meeting. The emails should have been sufficient. I have rather gotten the impression that my membership wasn't welcomed.
Reasonable points, what?
So may we take it that all your postings are a vendetta against BVO? I would think so.
11.07am
Scan your letter and put it on the BVO web site. Then we can all see it.
?
I must be going soft, I actually feel rather sorry for some members of SBVOA. These shenanigans with Darwin are taken so desperately seriously that I suspect there is nothing much else in their lives to occupy them!! Swanage is a lovely little town with rolling countryside all round, good beaches and friendly locals. The pubs keep good beer, the festivals are fun and the steam train magnificent. Surely enjoying all these is what its all about?? There is more than enough to occupy time rather than ineffectively blustering and threatening action they have no idea how to deliver. Obviously the details of the licence and the fees are important, but surely just as important is improving the park for all our benefit. As I have said before, I suspect the real problem is that SBV is set to become more of a holiday park and less of a retirement bolt hole and for some owners this is a major issue. You can embrace change and enjoy it or fight it and risk appearing ridiculous. What you cant do is stop it.
Standing up for yourself and not being bullied is also important, happycamper, rather than adopting a policy of appeasement. Some of the posts from the (few) Darwin propogandists on here lately almost seem to promote and endorse Darwin steamrollering things through. For example, your own comments about facing Darwin's legal team. Are you suggesting they will just bully the Association into submission? The facts will get in the way of that. The facts are what is important, Happycamper, and the facts support the Association, not Darwin.
I dont recall suggesting anyone would (or should) bully anyone else."facts" have a nasty habit of being open to interpretation and if you anticipate a legal fight it is wise to engage skilled help. Nor am I in the business of appeasement. I objected to the fee increase (who wouldnt?) and I made sure my objection was acknowledged as valid (why didnt the association- it wasnt rocket science)I just cant see the point of working myself into a lather over trivial detail which really isnt important if you look at the big picture. As I said, there is so much more out there to spend time enjoying.
I'm afraid I cannot keep up with all these 'anons'one of whom wants to join the bvoa and attended General meeting last Sat. This particular anon should just have asked for a form, filled in and hey ho you are a member! E-mails are not enough. Simple! Who's Happycamper? Identify yourself at once.
Happycamper, you know nothign about what the Association is doing, that much is obvious, so please do not post what is mere speculation on your part.
As someone who isn't sure what is going on, I have to say I find Happycamper's posts informed, reasonable and intelligent, while those countering his positions seem hectoring and very confrontational, and lacking any facts to back up their points. This is just an observation from somebody with no horse in this race.......no doubt I will be told to mind my own business, but I exercise my right of free speech.
As I am exercising mine!! My only interest SBVOA is around issues which, as an owner, will directly affect me (such as the fees issue)What have they got to lose by telling ALL the owners what their stance is on those sorts of issues?? As was suggested, a noticeboard in reception would be a good start. If they are speaking for a large group of owners (their members)then they have a duty of care to do it with due diligence - and that means engaging expert help when it is needed. If they dont even have the expertise to know when that is, then God help their members!!!!!
Ethel - perhaps the owner e-mailing wanted more information about the association before he filled out a form and hey ho instantly became a member. Minor details like aims and objectives, mission statement and ethos. Always good to make sure you agree with these before you comit yourself to membership of any group!
Thats why I attended a couple of meetings then decided I didnt want to join - in that short time, questionable interprtation of legislation, "facts " that were plain wrong and some very odd viewpoints were evident. I wonder how many other members have no idea what the association is asserting on their behalf??????
As for identifying myself, I am the owner with a happy smile, enjoying my time on the park and in swanage. I shall be on site this weekend, raising a pint (or three)and most importantly of all chilling out!!!
HappyCamper-
I hope you have a grand time at the park this weekend! Alas, a family commitment keeps me away...
We are in the same boat, us not being members of BVOA for reasons that seem more or less the same. We are in the dark about what BVOA and Darwin are discussing which will probably one day affect us as BVOA is the majority party of owners. You and I both want to know what is going on; I have asked the site manager but she is careful about what she says (and probably rightfully so).
There is one way around this I think that came up at the meeting last week, and you may not like it but here goes: it is possible to join the BVOA but not have then represent you with Darwin. In other words, you can participate in the Association, or not, and be kept abreast of what it is doing, while still be recognised by Darwin as representing yourself. I think BVOA isn't too keen on this (one committee chap lamented that 30 or so owner/members were self-represented). Meanwhile you would have access to all communications from the BVOA. So, it appears one can be a member of BVOA, but not have them appointed as one's representative in dealings with Darwin. Does this work for you?
Is the beer any better at the Vista, or is it a trip down to Swanage to find a good pint?? Cheers!!
happycamper, You would automatically have been given aims and objectives to read before joining any association, club etc. alsot they are pinned on the wall at every meeting for all to see. Did you miss them from where you were standing? Still quite simple to understand!
Any owner can join SBVOA and not have the Association represent them; as has rightly been said by fatherofthegroomcamper (hope you enjoyed the wedding)
As far as identifying yourself, it was a joke and I dont really care who you are, HEY HO
Happycamper, BVOA does not have the contact details of caravan owners who are not in the Association.
Talk to reception about permitting a noticeboard there, I would suggest that if Darwin would be amenable to this idea the information currently provided would be along the lines that Darwin are in denial about the agreements made between STC and the Association.
For the avoidance of doubt, SBVOA represents over 80% of the caravan owners. There was a show of hands at the last owners meeting to overwhelmingly confirm that the members would like the committee to continue to represent them.
Unfortunately you are unaware that expert help has been engaged when needed.
See above posts regarding aims etc., PLEASE TAKE NOTE.
Please could you explain the incorrect "facts" and odd viewpoints as you may have been misled by comments from STC.
As you say we come to Swanage to enjoy ourselves, so please excuse me if I am spending my time doing this rather than responding to your ill informmed posts.
Ethel - the sentiment is entirely mutual!! Anonymous 9.26 - I have not been misled by anyone, the remarks I refer to I heard from the mouths of the committee during the meetings I attended. You sound just the type of owner I would cross the road to avoid (as I suspect you would me) We both have valid viewpoints, they are just poles apart!!I am glad you are enjoying your time in swanage (rightly so) whilst you were posting with steam coming out of your ears I was in the Red Lion researching the beer. Different types of enjoyment!!!
FatheroftheBridegroomCamper - (Hope you had a good day) according to to the folk in the Red Lion, The brewer suppling the Vista complex has been changed, so beer might improve!!! Havent had chance to research yet, but hopefully a step in the right direction. Bar looked empty though when I passed on the way back tonight. I have considered your idea. The thought of giving money to the SBVOA does not appeal. I am sure I will find out information that concerns me soon enough. If I were to join I would be unable to resist attending meetings and would have to contribute an opinion- That me Im afraid!! One of two things would happen - I would be lynched (anonymous would be at the front of the rush) or I would find others who agree with me and I would find myself caught up in time consuming activities which I come to Swanage to avoid. So the jury is out on that one.
Owners may be interested in an article in the Daily Mail today - P89 Parks Go Posh. The world is moving on - Move over Gladys!!!! Ethel, anonymous et al.....................
Parks go posh? If that happens, all the more reason for park owners to comply with the terms of the licence, and follow government guidance. Darwin take heed!
I am posh- very
You and I will be well catered for then Ethel!!! I fancy lounging in a hot tub on the terrace outside the pool then moving into the newly revamped Vista to enjoy a locally sourced meal with real ale in the Lounge- Bar- Cafe - all things on offer at the 5* Littlesea park, not a million miles away.
Anonymous 12.02 - I think perhaps you are nit picking and puting your own interpretation on industry guidance. Apparently both Park resorts and Parkdean have invested millions to improve their parks. I have seen their agreements for owners and they are not vastly different to Darwins. I cannot beleive they are all in major breach of regulations. Of course they all want a good return on their investments and this will only come from a robust letting fleet. They couldnt raise fees for owners high enough to suffice. Someone on this blog a while ago commented that many owners would not stay on the park when their current licence expires - Im sure he didnt intend it to be but that may be music to Darwins ears. More room for letting units and the remaining owners of a like mind!!!! I wonder how long it will all take............
As I under stand it Darwin have no intention of investing in the site! I wouldn't mind getting the services I pay for.
I think Darwin intend selling the site in the next 5 years.
Thats interesting Anonymous - I am interested to know what has brought you to that conclusion?? Looking at their past operations, they have developed and invested in sites along the lines of their published business plan. Why do you think Bay View is any different - surely they want to maximise their return?
They insisted on a lease for 105 years not the 95 one on offer. If you sell anything leasehold to get a good price it has to be 95years or more. Buy in in a recession sell in 5 years when we will be in recovery if not fully recovered so get a better price. Also their MD said when asked what plans they had for the site "NONE" Everyone thinks STC sold cheaply. Good way to make a good profit.
Mmmm - Anonymous, I think you may have been misled by a typical salesmans comment. The answer "none" translates to "none I intend to discuss with you at this time". No-one spends millions on an asset and has no plans for it. Your theory sounds a resonable plan B "escape route if it all goes wrong" - every business has one. It may (or may not) make a good profit but it is chicken feed compared to the potential income from a site like this if it is developed well. I think you are probably right, five years seems a good timeframe to be looking at. A lot can happen in five years and as you so rightly say, hopefully the economic recovery will be well established and we will all have more money to spend. The industry as a whole seems to beleive there is money to be made from modernised spa-experience type sites and I still firmly beleive that is the direction Darwin are aiming at. Oh, to be a fly on the wall in their boardroom!!!!!
I have somewhere, buried amongst VAT receipts and other such detritus, a document which lists the date when each site license is up for renewal (it was up-to-date about a year ago. Few if any caravans have changed hands since then, or have been issued the old license).
Based on that document, which indicates that the average age of existing licenses is nearing or may have reached the half way point (7.5 years), here's my thought on Darwin's strategy. It may be one of many!
First, Darwin will have worked out the point in time when fewer than half the old site licenses are in existence. In the meantime, Darwin will only issue the new license (obviously) which is more in its favour than the old. All the while, Darwin will buy up a fleet of caravans as they go on the market for their letting fleet (at rock bottom prices) and quickly run up their fleet to 20, 30, 40 percent of all sites, perhaps even more. And develop the 30 or so undeveloped sites permitted by the PDC license, placing on then new caravans for letting bought at trade prices. As soon as Darwin controls <51% of pitch sites, it will be able to block fee increase challenges, and will be able to cite 'market forces' and 'improvements' to increase pitch fees as it wishes.
The question is: how long will it take Darwin to transform the park this way, taking it from a holiday park mainly for owners' use, to a letting park largely operated by Darwin for its own benefit, able to run up fees as it sees fit so long as they can be justified according to the new licenses - including raising them to improve the park largely for the benefit of the letting fleet/aspirational 'posh' market. Call me a cynic, but I will be surprised if something along these lines doesn't happen. It is only a matter of time - a few years at best - before the balance of type and age of licenses tips in Darwin's favour.
Any other ideas about how this might play out?? Like HappyCamper, I don't believe that Darwin bought this just to flip it in five years. That is too risky a strategy when using investors' money - who knows what the economy will be like in five years? Darwin does not seem to be a hedge fund management company, nor does it have a track record of asset stripping. Yet.
But, at my age, little surprises me!
I am sure there are some who think this is all rubbish; that government regulations, OFT 734, etc. will preserve the status quo; I would love to learn how this can or will be achieved. Is it at all possible? Would you give it a 100% chance? 90% 80% 50%?? Can we be given an iron-clad assurance that the park will remain as it is, into the future, or are we trying our best to achieve this but it is not certain?
A few posts back someone wrote that they 'knew for a fact' that Darwin's legal advisors would write to the Association telling them their objection to the fees was invalid due to 'improper phrasing'. I've always suspected that was a lot of hot air - the giveaway was the suggestion that some kind of specific phrasing is needed to object, which is of course a ridiculous idea - but can someone confirm whether it happened? I strongly suspect it didn't but it would be nice to know.
No. Darwin accepted the Objection of 88%
Can we begin another tread for "Swanage Bay View Holiday Park" Please?
'No. Darwin accepted the Objection of 88%old'
That's odd. The site manager told me just last week that Darwin deemed fewer than 51% of owners objected correctly - that is, improper terminology was used in the letters of objection. She said that Darwin was meeting with BVOA that week to sort this out - perhaps Darwin changed its mind. After all, Swanage Town Council has indemnified Darwin from any loss of income if it could not raise owners' site fees. Can anyone shed light on this?
The issue of the proposed fee increase is looking to be a very murky issue ideed with a nasty fishy smell getting incresingly worse!!!!
Neither side seem to be emerging with any credit so far. Darwin appear to be twisting and turning to acheive their objective by fair means or foul. BVOA seems to have acted with such incompetance so as to make it easy for them. What will be the outcome? Darwin are in a win-win situation, the owners are not so fortunate! I think the owners AS A WHOLE have a right to know just what BVOA have done in this matter - this is a legitimate request as their action directly affect ALL of us, not just their members. We should not have to pay and become members to find out what has happened. Their silence so far does not suggest successful action.
Incidently. it took me 3 or 4 attempts before Darwin acknowledged my objection as valid - If I can do that, alone at my computer, why cant BVOA? Of course the other possibility is that less than 51% of owners nominated BVOA to speak for them - they wouldnt want to make that public either I suspect! If that is so then perhaps they are blameless and I am doing them a disservice. Either way they are rapidly losing what little credibilty they had!!! The time to come clean and introduce some transparency is NOW!
Your speculation is wrong again, happy camper! Darwin have never suggested to BVOA that their objection (which was on behalf of well well over 51%) was not valid. Interesting to hear they tried to do so with your objection though! Either you weren't capable of wording it correctly (but how difficult is it to write 'I object', which is all you need to say)or Darwin have a policy of rejecting any individual objection first time round, in the hope you will give up? I don't know. Anyway, look, instead of groping around in the dark, posting stuff on here which is just plain wrong, why don't you just ask a member of the BVOA what is going on. I'm sure they would tell you because there is nothing to hide. You don't even have to join. That would save you having to waste your time posting on here anonymously and worrying about what you don't know, or don't know you don't know. Then you can spend more time at the pub.
There's a new thread on, by the way. I'm posting this on the new one as well.
??????? thats exactly what I was doing, inviting a member of BVOA to entighten us!!! Anonymous, I am assuming you are a member of BVOA, so perhaps you would like to do just that. With some evidence to back up your bluster please. You say Darwin have not suggested to BVOA that their objection was not valid, but you offer no evidence that the objection was acknowledged or accepted - an important distinction!!!! Just writing "I object" and standing back and waiting is not enough. Im off down the pub now for some intelligent conversation while you put together your reply, hopefully with evidence. Incidently,I have looked for the new thread, but cant find it yet so have posted again here - Im sure someone will point me in the right direction!!!!
Try top of the opening page.
"BAYVIEW HOLIDAY PARK"
HappyCamper - I just posted on the new thread (first page, top of this blog) which backs up what you state.
I'm heading down to the local - might see you there! I'm the owner with a smile on my face, as I am having a good time in Swanage!! There are too many frowns around that I don't have an urge to socialise with!!!
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