At 4:39 PM, Anonymous said...
Just read george willeys bit in the advertiser about the chav problems, according to many in here who wear rose tinted glasses, theres not a problem in swanage, I got flamed in august for suggeting there was. wake up and smell the coffee it is a BIG problem in swanage.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Posts
100 comments:
Its not "all" teenagers causing problems, just a few who need a good kick up the arse. The "soloution" in the paper about removing the shelter on the seafront wont do anything apart from move them to somewhere else just as they did when the old glass house on the sea front was removed a few years ago.
Perhaps if the police did their rounds on foot like they did when i was a teenager (15 ish years ago) it would put the chavs off doing so much damage but when they do the odd lap round town in their 4x4 and then retreat back to the station its not going to deter anyone from damaging property.
its not about the police and george is wrong its groups of upto 100 who come from as far a field as wareham and bovington,yes to a degree your right about the shelter but at least they could not hide from the cctv then.
George is of course a national treasure but I do wonder about some of the things he says. In this case it was that a new councillor had the novel idea of talking to these kids, which he hoped would work after all else had failed. What else? A decade or so ago there was a detached youth worker for a short time but funding for that dried up since when they have been left to their own devices.
By the way it is by no means unknown for Swanage youths to go to Wareham for an away fixture against the Wareham kids. The Bovington boys have always been tough nuts but its a long time since the Yeovil bike boys came over and terrified all of them.
Some time ago I suggested that as there is a plentiful supply of christians in Swanage they go down there en mass and pray at these kids. That would disperse them in a flash. This did not go down well for some reason.
Some windup merchant had a letter in the Echo recently suggesting the entire population aged from 16 to 21 be conscripted. You can only wonder what alternative universe they must be living in. There are 3.5 million in this age band. The army at the moment is 100,000 so what would it do with them. All the universities , sixth forms and and colleges would have to close but I guess all those media study lecturers could become generals. Modern barracks have single bedroomswith en suite facilities so at least there would be a building boom creating jobs for all those scarey Bulgarians and Poles. They will be needed to do all the jobs nobody is training for anymore. This is getting silly.
We are looking to fund outreach youth workers for Friday and Saturday nights but Dorset Youth Service have no money for this. Our staffing levels at the youth centre are barely adequate and we are streched to the max. We are looking at getting funding but who knows how long this will take???
Matt
If they're not at the shelter, you can guarantee they're in the alley behind the parade. The community police have been very helpful in the past in clearing problem groups but when one set go another group arrives taking territory. They do move on when asked but come back mainly weekends now smoking and spitting on our steps and intimidating residents. Police support is sometimes not existent at weekends and calls go via Christchurch and all over.
The kids usually 12-14 reckon they've nowhere else to go?!
Regular foot patrols around the Mowlem area at key times, lunchtimes weekends, early evenings when they meet up for the night, school holidays would be a start.
Jon has asked for a police comment regarding this thread. To cover everything that has happened and everything that is happening with regard to the problem youth in Swanage would require several pages and is not practicable so I will keep it brief.
There is a problem in Swanage and one that is worse in terms of sheer numbers than anything that has gone before. It is important though not to brand all young people as irresponsible and we are talking about no more than 10% of the population in this age group (which is actually quite significant given that in the past I would have said no more than 5% caused problems).
Central to this is the abuse of alcohol by young people the vast majority supplied by other adult young people selling it to them for a profit or from parents. Few are able to buy it themselves.
There are numerous initiatives currently underway to tackle this problem which include intervention, diversion and enforcement. The police obviously deal with the enforcement side of the equation and currently 12 young people have been arrested and are now on bail being investigated for a variety of offences. This is unprecedented in my 18 years of policing Swanage. Normally you would expect at most 3 or 4. Close to 100 anti-social behaviour warning letters have been sent to parents/guardians (this is the precurser to the ASBO process) and numerous youngsters who have been found in possession of alcohol have been taken home by police officers.
The subject of the blue shelter by the Mowlem theatre was one small part of a whole number of issues raised to combat this problem. Youths gather around shelters. This shelter is situated directly outside where some of the most vulnerable members of our community, i.e. families with young children and the elderly, go to see shows, films and the restaurant. It is encumbent on the police and local authorities ensure they do so safely.
With regard to the police doing the odd lap around the town in our 4x4 before returning to the station! There is at least a 90% chance that the officer you see will be going to or returning from an incident or an enquiry. I was here 15 years ago and yes we did perform foot patrols. Since then the demands on our time have increased substantially both at force and at local level. We do try and perform foot patrols whenever we can but is rare. Do foot patrols work? Of course they do and in this respect we are actively trying to recruit more special constables to fill this role together with Police Community Support Officers.
If you think Swanage has it bad talk to some of the people who have moved here from London or other cities in the past couple of years. Unfortunately there is a sizeable section of society that find it very difficult to understand the basic concept of respecting other members of their community!
Sgt Jon Bleasdale
Swanage Police Station
I'm shocked, but haven't taken offence.
I'm the Jon who asked for a Police comment.
I thought I'd get a personal reply and then have to negotiate which bits I could post or whether it would have to be a verbatim posting.
So at least we've surmounted that difficulty!
I'd like to thank Sgt Bleasdale - after all there aren't many Jons around!
This seems to me like a considered and informative response.
The 12 young people on bail did surprise me, if asked to guess I'd have had a go at 6, mebbie 8.
"Close to 100 anti-social behaviour warning letters have been sent to parents/guardian"
At first I was shocked, and then started to think, this is new legislation. 100 seems a lot, but what we can't judge is how many would have been issued 12, or 22 years ago if the legislation was in effect then.
The part about foot patrols - OK, who in Swanage is prepared to sign up as a Special?
A guy I work with in Poole has just done so, amongst other areas he was offerred was Swanage. He didn't take it - well, he does live the other side of Poole.
Where are we, the residents, of Swanage?
I know two 'specials' and 4 people I went to school with joined the police, one is now locally famous, one got my brother into trouble over xmas - but, hey, that's another story!
I'm currently sitting here, at nineish, writing thoughts and feeling slightly guilty.
Jon
Just to clarify about the 100 warning letters. This does not mean that there are 100 youngsters misbehaving in Swanage. Some of these were sent to Wareham and Bovington addresses and some were final warning letters. i.e. having received the first letter the message was not driven home!
Additionally, many of these are one-offs. These are youngsters who have their mad moment, learnt from it, and revert back to their normally responsible behaviour. Nevertheless it does indicate that there is a problem and hopefully people will be reassured that something is being done about it.
The longer term solution requires a shift in attitudes towards more responsible behaviour. The way towards this is very extensive subject in itself.
And yes there are not many Jon's about with this spelling!
Sgt Jon Bleasdale
Dear Sgt Bleasdale, if I was to say the kids embedded in the alley behind the Parade, could at present be caught regularly being antisocial weekends (if its not raining), most often at lunchtime whilst they have there chips, that would be of help to you, residents and local property. So rather than calling only for everything to be over by the time of response, a separate blog for incidents would be an idea to build a picture and save you guys alot of time. What do you think? Is that possible?
Many thanks for that suggestion and I appreciate the problems you have had at the rear of The Parade. There are changes underway within the police force that will hopefully improve communication between members of the community and ourselves which will help to target patrols and initiatives at appropriate times. In the meantime I would ask that you bring your problems to the attention of the local CBO Dick Clapp or the PCSO John Marshall and we will do everything we can to help you. With regard to setting up a separate blog I would not recommend this as we cannot commit to regularly reviewing the different forums and blog sites operating in Swanage. There will be more on policing changes coming up in the future.
Sgt Jon Bleasdale
Thanks for letting us know that those 100 letters cover more than Swanage, and your
"The longer term solution requires a shift in attitudes towards more responsible behaviour. The way towards this is very extensive subject in itself."
I couldn't agree more. I was brung up with what I now know as Unconditional Positive Regard for people.
Doesn't matter who you are I respect you as a human being.
It seems that these days many people - young and old, have Unconditional Positive Suspicion.
How do the public feel when treated as a supect?
The other Jon
Dear Sgt Bleasdale, I have had to clear up 2 vodka bottles and debris Sunday morning from our friends in the alley behind the parade. Then on their return this afternoon they were disturbed by my daughter returning in a friends car who was understandably shocked by the lake of phlegm and fag ends outside my property. Its embarrasing. So I called to leave a message to get Jon or Andy the PCSO's to give me a call about our friends as they know our problems but was handed over twice only to be told to call next time we had an incident. I had to give up in the end. So yes we do need better community/ police communication.
we have had all the bull C$$$ before theres lots to do in swanage, if they want to go and find it, also a % of the chavs come from outta town so why if theres nothing to do do they bother to come here, its again about responsibility of both the youths involved and the parents.
but hey in this modern society whyu take responsibility for your action when others will!
I thought that this thread - for once - had a rather mature attitude.
Shame about that last rant!
Show some self control, rise above the mayhem - doesn't quite rhyme with mail, but I'm sure you get my gist
its not a rant its true we have discussed whats to do in swanage and its a fact that a lot of these chavs come in from outta town so wheres the rant? anyway the way some people are treated by these idiots a rant would be at least justified.
Quote from new subject:
"I see the chav scum are at it again this weekend havoc and mayhem in town. thats what you get when you let kids run riot need more discpline, but I expect the parents are more drunk than thier kids".
I guess s/he posted on the wrong thread.
All I heard about was one YP being chased by a group of YP's. That's very wrong, but hardly havoc and mayhem.
praps the original poster can expand on chaos and mayhem
70/100 youths in town police over stretched 3 young men in their lates 20,s attacked by over a dozen 16/17 yr olds vicoius beating above 16 yr olds very very drunk from both own alcohol and pub drink, caused trouble on purpose for a laugh. sorry if you live out of town but above happened. Now comes the ohhh they have nothing to do brigade, at 2 am is the youth club open?
No I don't live out of town, I just wasn't in Swanage this weekend.
The story i heard is quite a bit a different to yours. Can anyone clarify?
I can i saw the damage or if you think im not telling the truth ask the police
It is true Friday nght was a nightmare for residents in the lower end of town. I saw and reported at least 30 youths drinking behind the Parade and smashing bottles e.t.c age 12 (possibly younger) and up from 6.30 onwards. The police are trying to ascertain whether it was a special occasion. And the majority I saw were from Swanage.
That seems like 3 different stories. Or maybe 3 chapters from the same book.
As 10:40 suggested:
Sgt Bleasdale - I don't know Police policy - but is there any chance you can clarify this situation?
I guess it's quite possible that you have a mound of paperwork in front of you at the moment.
black eyes bruised bodies and a stretched police force should be enough, as well as 2 witness accounts on here. if unsure feel free to walk from the peir to the libary a few times on fri/sat night from about 8pm till 2 am but take of the rose tinted glasses.
Sorry, but I'm one of those who does that walk most weekends.
From a professional point of view witnesses are useless until they're in the witness box and say, under oath, what they have seen.
Now, you've seen so much and reported so much, that you've obviously been in the the witness box.
As such, you can quote cases - please give us some - verifiable - facts.
whats the point with people like you unless you actually view an event it has not taken place. lets move on the people and resedents concerned know all about it and the regularity that it takes place, we are sorry we have rustled the pages of your gaurdian newspaper, ohh look sunrisse or dont you beleive that because you missed it.
also by your comments are you in the legal proffession? lots of work comming up.
just give some - verifiable - facts.
Verifiable facts? Walk down behind the Parade now and you can still see the glass from last Friday. Failing that have a walk down there Friday at 7pm and believe me you will be shocked. Strangely they don't hang out in front of shops drinking. You try putting an year old to bed at 8 when all you can hear is swearing and the sound of breaking bottles.
Have you looked into whether it is possible for the local authority or police to get an order prohibiting assemblies in the alley?
ohhh its all so fairy tale have you looked into the local authority etc etc of course we have so have the police this all boils down to 70/100 yes thats 70/100 youths coming into town on friday and saturday nights drinking causing damage and fighting in groups ohhh yes they are COWARDS they use their mobile phones to call up their mates when its about 6/1 in thier favour they will attack. So hide behind your pretty rose cottages and dont venture out at night, but i dont expect that will stop you making comments to those who suffer big time at the hands of this cowardly scum.
Why can't you discuss this without all these flights of fantasy about "pretty rose cottages"? What do you think should be done to make these people behave themselves thats within the law and the resources available?
CCTV would be great, the police have the idea of putting gates either ends of the alley which would be lovely but for access for deliveries and who would pay? Any solution would be good actually if it meant I didn't feel my family and my property were at risk every weekend. Would be great if the chip shop at the end of the alley helped in reporting but I've seen their employees on fag breaks turning a blind eye mainly because they will be joining them when they get off
because we have all tried various things to correct the situation and the council and others (not police) have failed lots of us are fed up with patrionising people blaming every one else except the wrong doers, its not about youth workers and things to do its down to personal responsibility of the youths and their parents, and they are sadly lacking its gone past ohhh lets enter dialogue its now serious mark my words there will be a death or very serious injury caused by these idiots, they have pack mentality, not choir boy morals!
Dear 7.35,
Can you answer the question please. What exactly do you think should be done?
put the little BA$$$$$ in jail but thats to radical i dont see wasting any more of the tax payers money on them. And by the way what would you do with them?
Dear 11:48
please answer the question before asking another.
Put them in jail? How long for, what do you think the sentence should be for breaking a bottle or dropping a beer tin? Presumably the same penalty should apply to discarding chip wrappers and the like. Similarly shouting and swearing. Thats a super idea, they could start by rounding up all the primary school kids at playtime and sending them off for a few years to learn to be proper criminals.
I thought my question would get a stupid answer like this
It seems to me the tone of this thread has become as intolerant and aggressive as the subjects it began by describing.
If every police car driving through town drove down the alley instead of past the shops in Institue Road, it's not much of a detour and it would be a good start in detering assemblies and they do soon scatter.
I answered your question I would put them in jail (or somewhere out of the way) then I asked what you would do, its typical you wont give an answer but are more than happy to criticise those that will.
And as for just dropping a beer can again it proves you have no knowledge of what these idiots get up to, perhaps you would like to speak to the person who was on the pavement and these lovely sunday school boys were kicking him the head, then when he tried to defend himself shouted were are only 16 you cant touch us, perhaps they should have told that to some of the pubs that served them alcohol or the adults who sell them beer from the back of their cars, it was 2am so why were theses poor little innocents not at home? answer me that. there is a major problem if you dont think there is fine but please dont pass comment on it, also unless you have been subject to the verbal and physical abuse these sweet little chavs dish out again dont comment, they come into swanage from other areas so again answer me why? they and their parents are to balme not me and the rest of the people who suffer at their hands so why dont you get out on a friday/saturday night go preach to them and find out where they are from and sort them out. but be warned it does not matter if you are male or female or even pushing a pram be prepared to have bottles thrown at you also spat at and im sure educated in how many 4 letter words can be used in a sentence, (thats why some want the blue shelter moved). I have and so have some of my family stood up to them both in person and court. so please again dont critise me, I may not be as eductaed as you but from what you write here I am more street wise and I have more guts and a back bone to stand up to them than you do. As my grandson said "they are nothing but thugs".
I try to avoid comments and opinions on subjects I know little or nothing about perhaps you should try the same.
Certainly, neither of us are criminologists, although I did study the subject as part of my degree a good few decades ago.
I do wish you would make up your mind. A few posts ago you asked what I would do with these kids and now you are telling me I should not give an opinion. However, being a victim of crime does not make anyone an expert on crime reduction either.
I agree that violent criminals should be locked up and I agree that what we are seeing is the consequence of the refusal of many parents to involve themselves in their children's lives. The situation portrayed in William Golding's Lord of the Flies is played out, not on a desert island but in our towns and cities.
Children are ghettoised. They go to school, they socialise with other children and they sometimes take part in "youth activities". All nicely segregated from the rest of society. Its hardly surprising that a proportion adopt behaviour the rest of us find repugnant.
ok 135 its your call three 16 yr old youths have been caught drunk using abusive language and seen by witnesses kicking another innocent person in the head as they lie on the pavement what would you do with them, we dont want lord of the flies quotes we want to know what you would do with them thats all. ABC or ASBO? prison ? your call.
If anyone is convicted of the attack I would expect them to receive a custodial sentence but I do not know all the circumstances of the attack or of the attackers. Life not being a mater of simple black and white decisions thats the best I can do. Drunkenness in a public place is an offence as you know. What charge could be brought for swearing is another matter, conduct likely to lead to a breach of the peace used to be the standby. I think the police here know what they are doing and will apply a carefully thought out escalation of sanctions as they think appropriate. Their job's hard enough without amateurs saying how it should be done. If you think they are under-resourced write to your MP and county councillors and try to get more manpower sent this way. I take it from the low level of policing we have that the police force do not think there is a serious problem here and you need to get your concerns over to them.
but the police need your support in reporting, and giving statements about crime also I and others have asked for more police on the beat, but its a 2 fold problem 1) where the youth (some not all) of today see this behaviour as acceptable and 2) yrs of underfunding and inept govt by the labour party, cure those 2 and most of the problem will dissapear the 2nd part within the next couple of years hopefully.
I do sometimes wonder.
An acquaintence of mine was an unnofficial ASBO back in the early '80's. Some say he wasn't the first.
And, BOY, weren't the Tories REALLY good at controlling crime! Said all the RIGHT things .....
Yeah, things are worse now, and that's because we have a growing - not my choice of words, but so much more succinct - underclass. This is National, probably even Global challenge. Oh, OK, problem.
The answer - I wish I knew.
Oh for the good old days when we had 4 or 5 million unemployed, 15% interest rates (and that was not the peak), thousand upon thousand of families loosing their homes.
Mind you the term inept never really came to mind, for example when Thatcher's government gave the impression it was not interested in the Falkland Islands and their previous owners turned up, mob handed as it were, to get them back or when the pound crashed out or the erm and the government's economic policy collapsed leaving the chancellor singing in the bath.
Funny thing is that with all this excitment they somehow neglected to inculcate into the parents of our chavs the need to bring them with a sense of responsibility. Careless of them.
bottom line is labour has been in power 10 yrs and we still have high crime rates poor education and loud mouth violent youths. its what happened now not 20 yrs ago if labour ohhh sorry new labour we any good the youth of today would not be as bad, problem is left wing ideas and human rights for the criminal have undermined peoples values. And ohh yes the prisons are full so shhhh dont jail all those child molesters. the people who comit these crimes know full well they aint going to be punished therefore its open season on decent hard working folks. But as i have said before you probably dont give a damn you dont suffer at the hands of these people.
20 years ago, when we had a PM who thought there was no such thing as society the parents of these kids were being brought up on a poisonous set of selfish values. Greed was good, all that mattered was pursuing self interest The communitarian values of the labour movement were mocked. Communities could be devastated in the name of economic rationality.
Now you see the long term consequences and you don't much like it. A society basing itself on an ideology of greed, self interest and a callous disregard for the weak produces children who apply those values to themselves. Birds come home to roost.
dear 8:29
Poor education - no. On the whole our education is pretty good. The main problem is a lack of staff. Are you prepared to stand up in front of up to 60, yeah 60 - normally 25 to 30, young people and try and teach them maths?
Of course to become a teacher you have to study for at least 3 years to get a degree, and then starting at about £18K, learn how to teach while teaching. Yeah I know they get good holidays, but many work 50 to 60 hours a week for 40 weeks of the year.
The country that has used prison as an answer to crime does have dropping crime rates.
The problem is that they lock up 5 times more per 100thou than we do.
That's 5 times the prisons, the warders, the social workers, the probation officers, lawyers, judges, courts etc.
Where are we going to build these prisons? Where are we going to get the Warders?
etc
etc
Don't forget all the extra schools and teacher we need as well.
Who's going to pay for it?
I think I'll retrain as a builder.
Oh, by the way the country with the high incarceration rate is the US.
theres nothing for the kids to do today, which is why they cause trouble, simply getting police involvement wont tackle the problem completely, you all need to look at the bigger picture. also you all seem to quick to criticise the police, it is a nationwide problem, the shortage of police officers and im sure if there were more of them we would be better policed. im sure their job isnt quite as easy as you lot seem to think, maybe you should go out on a night shift at the weekend with them, and see what they do and how hard their job is, and maybe offer some helpful advice, rather than shouting your mouth off behind the relative safety (watch out for the hoodies outside) of your computer screens
Anonymous said 2/10/2007 01:35:10 theres nothing for the kids to do today ..
any suggestions?! ...what about ..
go for a walk, go rock climbing at Anvil Point, swimming, tennis, mountain biking, circus skills, painting, play music, read, learn computer skills.......
what do people MEAN when they say there's nothing for kids to do? .. heh, they could join the army come to that
Who has criticised the police in this thread? It has been pointed out that from their perspective Swanage problems are very small beer. Thats hardly a criticism of the police at operational level. We have more coppers than ever before so its not numbers either.
macrame, needlepoint, bridge ....
"heh, they could join the army come to that"
Go and ask them if they'd like to do those things.
seriously, what counts as 'something to do"? I just don't get it. Do they need to have rides and go-karts (some in Swanage anyway)? Are the things they want just things that cost money, like rides and theme parks. Do they mean "if only we had Tower Park in Swanage, life would be great. What DO 'they' want?
Dunno.
Maybe we need to ask them.
Damn, I'm annoyed now.
When I mentioned all the 5 times bit, I thought I'd get: the Poles.
Yours
Kryton
why if theres NOTHING to do in swanage do 40/50 of em come from wareham/wool/bovington? thers lots to do if you go look for it. And who blamed the police I certainly did not I support them more than you realise, also who criticsed teachers the lack of money for school/staff and education is all i commented about.(also 40 weeks at approx 50 hrs is the same as the average man doing 48 weeks work) As I have said its down to personal responsibility and its sadly lacking in both youths and a lot of their parents. why dont all those who think this is a jolly jape get out and see for themselves, but I suppose the areas of durlston new swanage are to far to travel.
Which begs the question where does a sense of responsibility come from? Why did the parents of these young people never develop enough responsibility to imbue their children with it? The locust years of worshiping greed and self interest they grew up in perhaps?
or the total lack of respect for authority spinelss coutrs and trash tv shows, knowing that little or no punishment will be dished out, easy money from the state, and under funding of the police and schools. or we could send all the 17 yr old swanage youths to iraq seems this govt likes doing that! dont blame all the ills of today on waht happened 15 yrs plus ago put the blame where it belongs tony and new labour.
Oh for those arcadian days before 1997 when crime was unknown, youth respectful and pigs flew.
I am told that if the police charge someone they have to take them to Poole (to do the paperwork I suppose. Whilst those 2 (?) policemen are out of town for 2 hours minimum does that mean there are no police on duty in Swanage?
Lack of discipline has been ebbing away over the past 40 odd years....time to bring back flogging I'd say....lighting blue touch paper and retiring.
I am told ....
to do paperwork I suppose ....
2(?) policeman .....
No facts, guesswork, supposition.
So, I think I'll ignore the last paragraph.
1040 am to 625 am - I can assure you this piece of info came from a very reliable source, a magistrate.
Perhaps the police can confirm or deny.
Im led to beleive that the reason they go to poole is that there are no holding cells, in either wareham or swanage, so it begs the question do they build those cells causing outrage at the plans, or do we need more police on the beat to cover the missing officers both need extra funding which under this govt we stand no chance of getting. due to thier inept and crime policies and slow strangulation of the english country. or as i stated before send all the 17 yr old to iraq tony seems to like to do that.
Why do people say respect when they mean deference? What you would like to see is a display of exaggerated obsequiousness cause by fear of the consequences of being honest about what they think of you. What exactly do you do to earn respect?
The police, teachers, social workers and a good many others spend endless hours filling in forms in part because their predecessors showed they could not be trusted to do the job properly and honestly and in part because of the corrosive culture of "audit" which has grown in the last decade or so in which nothing has happened unless there is a piece of paper saying it has happened.
We have reached a situation where nobody can be trusted to do anything without generating an ample paper-trail of self justifying "records" so they and their bosses can't be blamed if things go wrong.
Got it now. Its the fault of the schools. Kids are not brought up with an awareness of Kant's categorical imperative.which seems to be what you mean by respect. Fortunately the government is making noises about philosophy being taught in primary schools so the solution is at hand.
Wikipedia has an interesting article on respect from which I have lifted Kant. However, don't try to convince the chavs about the categorical imperative just yet. They may need a little softening up first. Some Descartes perhaps, "I swear so therefore I am"?
I think you make a good point, but to me we should start with some Hegelian dialectics: especially the laws of contradiction and of the excluded middle.
Once the Chavs are inculcated then of course we can move on to the Triads, and then we'll all agree with each other.
Oh, no we won't.
Oh yes we will.
Discuss.
Were the chavs called into existence as a dialectical opposite of some other social form? Hmmm... Polite conformist parents perhaps? Interesting idea.
Then again what would the neo-logical positivists make of it? Shall we draft in the heavy duty epistomologists to sort them out or resort to chemical warfare and get the existentialists to breath Galouis fumes over them.
Ah, I'm now a little dissappointed - however one spells it - you see I thought that I had the answer.
Derrida and Deconstructionism I thought.
But then of course I remembered the 'Sokal Affair'.
And I quote:
""My goal isn't to defend science from the barbarian hordes of lit crit (we'll survive just fine, thank you), but to defend the Left from a trendy segment of itself. ... There are hundreds of important political and economic issues surrounding science and technology. Sociology of science, at its best, has done much to clarify these issues. But sloppy sociology, like sloppy science, is useless or even counterproductive."
And I realised that that really said it all.
Ah, Nurse my medication, thank you.
Gord streuth guv, strike a light.
Bornmuf scored 5 at the weekend and if you can beleeve it, the opposition scored less.
Explain that - if you can!
I think that Taleb's; "Black swan theory" may explain this.
Oh, c'mon now - the discovery of Australia. Does that help?
Who are you calling a black swan? We all know thats a pub and getting into the realms of pub philosophy takes us back to the original postings grumbling about young people which emanated from a bar. Circular rather than dialectical.
Trouble is the English don't do philosophy as (i) they are too thick, (ii) its a bit brain-straining (iii) anything involving thinking has to be suspect, unless, that is, they have had a few pints in which case none of these objections seem to apply.
Actually, young fella, me lad, I wasn't calling anyone a Black Swan, I was pondering about Taleb and his use of those fine words.
However, having stated my position, I must say that on the whole, I concur with your musings upon English filosofy.
Pesonally I am of the opinion that since Hegel, and his largely indecipherable ramblings, little has actually been said that makes sense anymore than phrases such as;
If the moon is pink then Thursday must surely follow March.
I hope that clarifies my postion.
Yours
A N Imbecile
P.S. Sorry about the overuse of the humble comma.
I must say its no suprise that you are treating a thread like this with levity, it shows that you have no answers to this serious problem you treat severe facial injuries cowardly attacks and criminal damage with so much disdain, im sure our hard working boys in blue love people like you lot, as i have said before some of us are not so educated but we have moral fibre and common decency and are willing to stand up to these thugs go to court and make statements, enjoy your public school humour, I have shown some of your comments to others they think you are sad people, lets hope the next crimainl act is against people like you and leave the hard working decent honest folk alone.
Once again I ask how you think the values you say you possess can be inculcated in the kids you complain about. All you want to do is sneer at other posters so its not surprising we take the piss. Its not as if you want to have a serious discussion about how to help these kids behave themselves.
I dont worry if you take the piss as you say, its the people whom have been badly beaten and had criminal damage done you insult, I told one of those BADLY injured in the recent attacks about your comments im sorry to say i cant write what he said about your comments, as to helping them its true some can and will respond to help but others wont its as simple as that, and why should countless money be spent on these kids ( ie bad behaviour is rewarded) when my kids and grandkids go without, also a large numeber of these thugs come from fammilies that at no stretch of the imagination can you call underprivileged, some beleive it or not do fairly well at school, but they hunt and drink in packs and think nothing of beating the c££p out of people because its "fun". some as I have stated many times -a fact you seem to ignore- come from many miles away so its not a case of nothing to do in swanage theres lots to do, again a fact thats ignored by a lot of the posters, it boils down to the fact that there is a % of youths in ther area hell bent on causing injury and damage, no matter how you want to sugar coat it, I do actually think some of the posters are the ignorant ones here, they seem to think its all so easy to criticise people like me and give out pompous advice but do nothing about and perhaps even lack the moral fibre to actual do anything abaout it. why dont you go out for a few friday/saturday night between 9pm and 1 am and offer help to these youths chat to them ask them why they do this, perhaps start up a club, good luck if you suceed i take my hat of to you, but its a sure fired bet you have not either the courage or the will power to do it.
What are these "insults" you keep talking about? Nobody has said anything about victims that insults them. Please quote the statements you think are insults and we can see what you are on about.
Shadow trade and industry secretary Alan Duncan must have read my remark about Lord of the Flies as he included it in a speech yesterday. Only trouble is he was addressing himself to people like you who think its all about authority. The fact is authority went years ago and its a waste of time pretending it can be restored.
its the light hearted way in which some of the posters treated the subject its a serious subject and it was turned into a public school boy joke, to treat something like this ie the beatings and criminal damge done so off hand is an insult to all the victims, and again what would you do with them? I have stated what I think should happen tags/abc/asbo's and if need be imprisoment, whats your solution?
Your solution is what happens now - although I seem to remember that tags were shown to be inneffective and dropped - I stand to be corrected.
My solution would cost lots of time and money and would get me accused of being a guardian reader, which I'm not.
Oh well, off home to my rose covered cottage - which is bloody amazing considering the time of year.
ok who pays? more tax rises and it begs the question misbehave and we will spend money on you. when the nhs and education (in general) is in a poor state let alone the armed forces, as I stated its ok for perhaps inner city places but a lot of these thugs are from good homes ie comfortable way of life, and i stick by my point come down and face them chat and "try" and reason with them please do tell me when and where and im sure some of us will come and see how you get on. its not allways about throwing money at problems it about personal behaviour and responsibility. so where and how would you spend your money pray tell we all wait with baited breath (any chance for some of your money for the poor buggers who were beaten up).
Beats me how anyone can pepper their postings with snide little digs at anyone who disagrees with them and then then grumble that what they want is a serious discussion.
Now its why spend money on people whose behaviour is antisocial. I used to hear this from my relatives about 50 years ago. Good question, simple answer is that there are no cheap cures. Prison is about the dearest option so you wont want to go down that road. Are ASBOs in fashion now? A few weeks ago they were being denounced and the right wing press were making a lot of the number of breaches. Not of course that those in prison commit any offences while they are inside do they. Apart from a lot of drugs, violence, extortion and theft of course.
How can we advance this discussion if you want it on the infantile level of posting that antisocial behaviour is about behaviour and responsibility. Behaviour is about behaviour! Wow.
Well said.
By the way, as a single bloke who smokes and drinks - yes in Swanage, doing the lower high street walk many times, makes me one of the most taxed people in the country.
I am prepared to pay more tax, IF it is raised locally and spent - probably thro' a referendum, where local people want it spent.
Just in case you've made the link - no, I'm not a Lib Dem. That doesn't stop it being a bloody good idea.
Now, you seem to be expecting me to go and talk to these young people and find out what they want.
I expect their first question would be along the lines of, got any money to spend? Which would make the exercise pointless.
Plus if I did it, and then presented my findings to the powers that be, I expect they'd be very polite in saying something along the lines of; can you prove that you didn't just sit at home and make this up.
Plus there's the other problem that the YP's may not know what they want to do. That's sad.
Why don't want to be at home in the bosom of their family?
You say that some of them come from well off homes.
Your probably right, but define well off? It's such a relative statement.
And one thing you may be forgetting is that 'bad' behaviour usually starts in the monied classes.
Heroin and Coke weren't a problem when the rich used them, it was only when we oiks got hold of them that they became so.
Next, "misbehave and we'll spend money on you".
What you seem to forget is that the vast majority of people are generally speaking law abiding. It's a small minority who cause the problems.
What is being done is to spend money on these repeat offenders who commit nearly all the smaller crimes - those that effect you and me.
Spend money on this group and for each one that starts to take life seriously the crime rate plummets.
One of the problems that the Brits have is the idea of using a carrot instead of a stick.
You tend to say if they cause problems lock em up.
I tend to say if they cause problems let's offer something that will stop them playing up.
Oh, one more you said that you couldn't say what one of the victims said about we philosophers.
If you wanted to you could. You just remove names and use lots of !!$$%%.
By the way the victim I know talks more of his fear and disgust about what happened.
He hasn't - yet - blamed anyone.
well the victimS i know have made statements and so has a potential witness, it was not me who made snide comments I think its disgusting that many posters treated the thread as a joke and made infantile quotes and comments, again it is down to responsibility, a lot of parents dont care or seem to have a bury my head in sand attitude. thats not acting responsible is it? also they actively transport their offspring in to swnage from outside the town, when a few are arrested and charged they scorn at the police and theire parents/gaurdinas do aswell, so what should we do? as for well of I meant by that that some of the fammiles concerned have property and bussines,there again is lots of things to do in swnage. so what carrot would you offer? why should hard earnt tax payers money be spent on a few when there are people dying due to lack of NHS drugs, again its not a deprived inner city area, these idiots are just along to cause problems ask the police some times its an organised event. as you drink down the lower high st perhaps if you saw underage drinkers you could point them out to the publican or police, as you seem to fequent, that part of town explain why numerous14/15/16 yr olds are out at 130am? if you were a parent would you not be asking questions?I truly hope you dont get attacked, im sure if you ever did you would see the large problem these kids cxause. part of the problem I feel is that a lot of residents in town dont realsie what goes on some nights, last night my son was walking home from work (yes work) at 120 am he was verbal abused by some 17 yr old very drunk 2 Q where did they get drunk and why were they out that late, he came home upset and covered in phelmg, human Ntature is not nice? at 230 there was still a few drunk teens from 15-19yrs old swearing shouting and arguing in town I KNOW I was awake listening to them. AND wow behaviour is about being responsible, both on a personal level and on a parental level. I am a parent and i beleive it or not know a lot of other parents, we have all taught our kids respect and deceny, angels they are not but violence drugs abusive threatning behaviuor is not in them, why? how? our telling them that its not acceptable and being responsible parents in guiding and advising them? Im not perfect are you but at leats with hard work and patience my kids and grandkids are pointed and guided in the corect direction. ASBO's are away forward deprive them of acces to certain areas and they dont like it, whats your solution to these thugs then buy them cd's give them holidays that in my opinion is rewarding bad behavior and underminning those of us who at leats try to instill discipline and responsibility into our off spring.
D Cameron and his sidekicks say they recognise the problem but are keeping stum about the answer apart from tax breaks for married couples. Not an acceptable answer, however,if you don't support throwing money at the problem.
Whose kids are these Growing up without discipline? Their parents must be relaxed, tolerant and willing to accept their children's behaviour. That's a perfect description of Guardian readers so it must be their fault. Little Tarquin, driven mad by repeatedly being asked whether he needs more help with his latin prep goes off the rails.
We need to make people face up to their responsibilities as parents and families
John Reid
as i have been saying all along.
Quote from one of thier victims a 22 yr old man if I had spoken to an older person the way they spoke and treated us my dad would have given me a slap for being disrecspactable. not my view but a victims view who the said hes a liberal sort of guy.
"We need to make people face up to their responsibilities as parents and families "
Nobody disagrees with that. How do you propose going about it? The politicians don't seem to know.
"If I had spoken to an older person the way they spoke and treated us my dad would have given me a slap for being disrecspactable"
Everything suggests the people on the other end of the argument were brought up in exactly the same way.
What else do you expect to happen if people are brought up to believe the strong are justified in hitting the weak when it suits them? The subtlty that this should only apply if the victim is younger appears to have escaped them. What really went on? Did these kids think they were teaching some ignorant drunks to respect them by any chance and that a good beating was the way to make their point? I don't know. I was not there. You have spoken to one of the men involved and presumably can attest to their sobriety at the time. Find out what was said.
Dear 6:19
I don't think anyone on this thread actually knows what will work with these YP's.
But one thing's for sure, a clip 'round the ear won't.
Society has changed, hitting smaller, weaker people is no longer the answer.
Of course their will always be some, many of them under an influence, who believe it is the answer.
Yours, a 7ft hulk, who learnt better.
Sorry about this but
619
Quote from one of thier victims a 22 yr old man if I had spoken to an older person the way they spoke and treated us my dad would have given me a slap for being disrecspactable. not my view but a victims view who the said hes a liberal sort of guy.
What Im about to say is sad and i apologise.
The quote says that some young people verbally abused an older person and then instead of the older giving a clip round the ear, the younger kicked his head in.
SAD and WRONG, but probably real.
Times have changed and if people behave as in 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago then they have to expect a different response.
Age does not equal respect. Some of the rudest people i know are old.
The young have been told for ages that you have to earn respect. Implying that if you live beyond 40 then you deserve respect.
It seems that these days the young are saying that you have to earn respect. It doesnt matter how old you are, everyone has to earn respect.
I dont agree myself, coming from the school of Carl Rogers, but im one voice in the lush greenery of swanage
im not going to carry on these comments i was involved at all levels I know what went on and to a degree what action is being taken some of you pass commenst on a subject you are to be honest totally ignorant of and im going to print those commenst and pass them on to 4 of the people who were beaten if they then find this web page and correct you on the subject so be it, a lot of you are pompous asses and 2 of those who were beaten agree, you offer no sensible solution take the side of the perputrtors offer them money and assitance when really the victims shold have your sympathy this in its self gives credance to these thugs. as an ex police officer said today its baltant that most of you have never been attacked or even faced this type of abuse, go rush away read your fancy books spout your long posh words all i know is that when it comes to giving statements and standing up to this thugs i and many others will do it unlike a lot of posters in here. I and so do the authorities know which pubs and people serve these morons the drink that fuels their rage it is being dealt with and soon I hope.
If you know facts we don't why sit on them and grumble that we are commenting in ignorance of the facts. Post them here. All I can go on is what I have been told. The version I heard is that a small group of people were drinking in a bar known as a haunt of the towns less desirables. While consuming what is thought to be a large amount they had some verbal exchange with a group of lads. This seems to have been acrimonious on both sides. When they left the premises some time after 2am the lads followed them and a fight broke out.
Do you have a different version? Tell us it. What I have heard may be entirely wrong.
Who on earth is "offering money". Thats complete tripe and either you have made it up or you can't understand what other people are saying.
At 7:18 PM, Anonymous said...
Your solution is what happens now - although I seem to remember that tags were shown to be inneffective and dropped - I stand to be corrected.
My solution would cost lots of time and money and would get me accused of being a guardian reader, which I'm not.
Oh well, off home to my rose covered cottage - which is bloody amazing considering the time of year.
thats one poster "offering money" so its not tripe or "i dont understand" and perhaps as you want me to be "open" you will name the bar/pub that serves the towns undesirables, then at leats we can all keep an eye out for them the full story will come out in court.
Im 7:18
Offering money - NO.
Spending money - YES.
It costs money to send out warning letters.
It costs money to get an ASBO.
It costs money to imprison people.
It costs money to employ more Police.
It costs money to employ outreach youth workers.
etc
etc
If you've been telling the victims that I'm suggesting we offer money, then their response is entirely understandable.
There is only one option that won't cost anymore money and that is to leave everything as it is.
Is that what you want?
And if, as I suspect, you want change it's going to cost money.
That money will be raised by cutting other services or by raising tax.
Is that clear?
If it wasn't an anonymous posting, I'd be off getting legal advice.
Your comments are misrepresentation at best.
i did not bring up the phrase offering money all i have said is it would cost money, as perhaps your self said my argument is that why should it COST money why should honest hard working tax payers pay for these thugs bad behaviour when in this area alone theres a shoprtages across the board. I have said to the victims that posters on here and I beleive this to be true have said that money needs to be spent on these people ie youth workers things to do etc etc, their response was WHY theres lots to do etc etc these thugs are 16/17 and drunk on the streets of swanage at 2am why is money needed to be spent answer us that? wether the term offering or spending money is used its the same money towards blatant bully cowards and thugs why why why. as has been said in other threads these make up only a small % so why should we use hard earnt money the rest of the youths in town do ok. and dont shout about raising taxes and cutting service i know that i said that on many occasions, again why should we? if you want to fund this by yourself go ahead. dont use my or the victims money is that clear enough......
Reading some of these remarks about respect for older people made me think of my childhood in the 50s and 60s. Apart from my parents the only adults I saw regularly were teachers in the various Swanage schools I attended. Now as a generation they had seem their country reduced to beggardom by the economic policies of the 20s and 30s and almost brought to defeat and invasion in 1940. Their respect for their elders was, let us say, rather limited.
Did I respect them? Well they tended to fall into two camps, there were the ones who treated us as human beings and had some interest and enthusiasm for their subject. I learnt a great deal from these and can still remember the contents of some lessons. The other group seemed to have learnt their trade as prison camp guards. Their weapons were humiliation and sarcasm. I was terrified of them from the moment they came into the room until their footsteps had echoed away down the corridor. My achievement in their subjects was non existent.
I had a regard for the first group. You could have a conversation with them but nothing but contempt for the latter. In retrospect the bullies and kids with aggression problems probably did "respect" the most obnoxious teachers as they saw a justification for their own behaviour in them. Of course we all did the subservience role play in their presence but behind their backs we regarded them as the stalag goons they resembled. We were a little more honest with the friendly teachers because we had some rapport with them.
dear 2:20 I was replying to 12:32 so if that's not you, you don't need to take any offence.
Dear 12:32, you use the phrase offering money.
and
"whether the phrase offering or spending money is used"
Totally different things.
Offering is saying I've got this would you like it.
Spending is having made a decision and convinced yourself it's the right one you spend your money.
Totally different things.
I already answered your point about why money needs to be spent, and said if you don't want to spend money then nothing will change.
The reason we should spend money on this tiny %age is, as I've already posted in this thread, if you remove the small number of repeat offenders then crime rates plummet.
Use my own money?
I'm the single smoker and drinker who already pays a lot in tax and is prepared to pay more.
I pay my tax into a communal pot that whatever gov't gets elected spends.
It may be my money it may be yours, it may be some person from Glasgow.
If you don't want tax money spent then nothing will change.
"If I had spoken to an older person the way they spoke and treated us my dad would have given me a slap for being disrecspactable"
How very English and how very hypocritical. Bring your kids up to think all that matters is the impression you give other people not what you really think.
Take that a stage further and you find yourself agreeing with these London thugs who shoot people who fail to show respect. We'd better not go down that road.
Damn, dear 2:20
I was responding to you as well!
A few lunchtime drinks and i descend into a gibbering wreck!
As for naming the pubs that serve underagers, this is an anonymous thread.
No I'm not prepared to post on here in my own name.
If I had evidence - not heresay, not opinion, then I'd do something about it.
Unless of course, I knew the YP's and knew that they always went home and caused no-one any trouble.
Why? Cuz that's how it was in my day. No-one gave a toss if all was quiet.
My GreatGrandfather used to check that all was quiet before going to bed!
BUT times have changed.
Too much media?
Probably, we didn't even have this blog thing 5? years ago.
No flow of information.
Lots of hearsay lots of rumour, but nowhere to make it public, so it stayed as hearsay and rumour, which is exactly what this blog is.
Olde english phrases.
Keeping your powder dry.
I know one of the victims and an 'eye witness'.
What the eye witness tells me differs from anything posted on here.
I'm not saying they're right, but I wait with baited breath.
No smoke without fire.
The more I think about some of the things in this thread the daffier it gets. If you endorse hitting weak and defenceless children for showing their feelings honestly how can you object when some of them do the same thing to other people when they get a bit older?
What we have is a sad culture in which children grow up with the principle that might is right demonstrated to them daily. At the same time they are told they should not be using violence. Naturally enough a proportion come to the conclusion that violence is the prerogative of adults and so when they get a bit older and want to show their friends just how grown up they are what else do they do but hit someone. The remarkable thing is that the majority have the sense to see through this.
Thumbs up guys your doing a really good job.
buy facebook photo likes 50
Post a Comment