Wednesday, May 02, 2012

Conservation Area does anyone care?


The East Bar has plans in to turn the first floor bar into flats. Would this be a good opportunity for the planners to insist on the reinstatement of the original windows including the boarded up one, and the replacement of the front balcony to match the west wing again?

92 comments:

Tom said...

I assume the architet Peter Smith bears no relation to the Purbeck head of Building Regs with the same name?

Anonymous said...

On this Blog 22/2/10 Anonymous said...
"I emailed the planners asking whether the East Bar fascia had planning permission."
This is quite important as this planning permission seeks to legitimise the new facia. Have the planners taken any action to have the balcony put back?

Anonymous said...

I emailed the planners asking hether the facia had planning permission some time ago and apart from an acknowledgement with the subject line "possible spam" had no response leading me to harbour deep suspicions that some sort of deal had been done. We debated the plasticy rubbish on here a while ago. Remarkably there were defenders of this foul excrescence on a listed building. Its a pity the Purbeck Society does not campaign against this sort of nibbling away at heritage buildings.

Robin from Swanage said...

The Purbeck Society does campaign against Swanage losing heritage buildings. It has replaced the Buildings Group, of which Nick was a member, as the voice of Swanage at planning meetings. Some problems are that the planning department has made so many bad decisions in the past that they become precedents for bad decisions now and the department is not good at enforcing its decisions. The Chief Executive has been known to pressurise councillors into making decisions as happened at the public meeting about Seacourt. Money talks in Purbeck.

Anonymous said...

I understood that planning decisions were made at the FM Lodge in Marshall Row.

Anonymous said...

The East Bar is currently for sale so I doubt there are any plans for it until that is resolved.

Anonymous said...

Given the fact that the pub trade is in an even worse state that the housing market pp to convert would enhance the value.

Anonymous said...

Yes it may well do but if its up for sale there won't be any plans about change of useage. Just seems a,pointless topic and another where someone here's something in town third hand and takes it as fact.

Anonymous said...

http://planning-purbeck.dorsetforyou.com/planning/PlanAppDisp.asp?RecNum=38629

Anonymous said...

"...if its up for sale there won't be any plans about change of useage."

Try and keep up with the rest of the class. There are plans. The whole point is to make it easier to sell or worth more.

Ironic that the defenders of the noise created by departing customers from lower High Street bars maintain that it is not a residential area at all but here we have the owner of a bar seeking to make even more residential.

Anonymous said...

How come the design and conservation officer has completly missed the points made in first post?
http://planning-purbeck.dorsetforyou.com/Planning/Web%20Importer%20Attachments/38629/F010083.pdf

Anonymous said...

Think that 1 24 needs to keep up with the class himself. No one has said it isn't a residential area, just that a bit of noise is to be expected of a Saturday night if you live near a pub. It's been like that for centuries, probably as long as we have had pubs and a) you should realise that before moving in there and b) it isn't as bad as people are making out.

Anonymous said...

Noise at midnight+ when you live by a pub is one thing, noise at 3 in the morning is something else.

Anonymous said...

Re above posts: It's not just noise on Saturday night, actually it is circa 0315 Sunday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday & Saturday mornings as tanked-up drivers, no doubt showing off to their 'birds'leave up Seymer Road round the back and down Queens Road to join the Upper High street, so as to avoid the rare possibility of there being a Police patrol.
RobO

Anonymous said...

Considering through the winter the clubs and pubs were either not open or shut by about 11pm on the nights you mentioned bar fri night/sat morn and sat night/ sun morn if you were hearing noise late into the night it wasn't to do with them.

I know you want it to be their fault as it fits your agenda but it really can't be if they aren't open.

As for the weekend, there probably is a bit of noise, but if you don't like it, don't move in near the pubs and bars, they aren't new.

The noise does happen but, i think it's being made out to be worse than it is. People are moved on quite quickly by the owners, door staff and increased police presence.

Anonymous said...

I think the original post was aimed at the inertia of the planning officers to take action not the improvisation of the Landlord to take advantage of the situation.

Anonymous said...

well it seem that the police are hell bent on closing all pubs/clubs in the lower high st so when swanage dies a death and just old miserable in comers are left I wont be able to get a doctors appt; moaners in the lower high st be carefull what you wish for. And its true in the winter months many of those establisments are CLOSED I know because i check.

Anonymous said...

If the pubs depend on customers who are unable to walk home without breaking windows, shouting, peeing in doorways and hitting each other good riddance.

Why anyone thinks Swanage depends on them is a mystery.

Which ones close in the winter? There are certainly less incidents of criminal damage in winter so of certain places are not open we know where the problem is.

Anonymous said...

Robin 8.31 is anyone in the Purbeck Society reading this? How are they contacted?

Anonymous said...

The fact is that people living in the Conservation Area have to put up with things like draughty, expensive to maintain wooden sash windows. That's part of living where they live. Why should the main listed building be exempt just because parts of it are pubs?

Anonymous said...

I would like to pick up this point:

"Think that 1 24 needs to keep up with the class himself. No one has said it isn't a residential area, just that a bit of noise is to be expected of a Saturday night if you live near a pub."

On the contrary, I have been to a number of meetings and had discussions with various people with a role in this including individual police officers, and a good many have maintained that this is an entertainment area not a residential one.

The complaints are vocalised by a small number but many more siffer. As you might expect, most of the people who live there prefer to keep their heads down. The noise is made by an even smaller number.

The total numbers in the street between 2 and 3.15 on warm nights when there is late drinking is a few dozen, less if the weather is poor. The upset caused is disproportionate to the number. It is quite absurd for anyone to claim that Swanage would wither away without access to licensed premises after midnight for this tiny number of people.

I have heard claims that this is all vital to the "night-time economy". That also is complete piffle.

The police can only enforce the law and try to prevent it being proken. What we are seeing is therefore a demand that part of Swanage should enjoy an exemption from the law of the land when it suits a couple of businesses. We have already seen a similar approach deployed in respect of the planning system in the case of two sites in this area of town. Perhaps we can expect a campaign for the restoration of bear baiting and bare fisted boxing on the grounds that they draw a croud and there is money to be made from them.

Anonymous said...

The total numbers in the street between 2 and 3.15 on warm nights when there is late drinking is a few dozen, less if the weather is poor. The upset caused is disproportionate to the number. It is quite absurd for anyone to claim that Swanage would wither away without access to licensed premises after midnight for this tiny number of people.

I agree perhaps the club should be made to shut earlier thus not having late night noise. But the problem is the moaning minority will want draconian measures on ALL pubs in town not just the lower high st. why should the well behaved establishments suffer. Police officers are duty bound to uphold the law not dictate new laws and conditions if some one is misbehaving warn then arrest... ohhh we cant do that to much bloody effort and paperwork.

Why should the majority suffer by not being allowed to enjoy a beer after midnight.. perhaps they dont finnish work till late.

I suspect you are not a local. noise has allways been about in the lower high st. lax palnning laws have made it worse by allowing more residential properties than were there before....

One question I will ask. when there is the jubilee st. party in June what time is the new inspector expecting the music to finnish... bearing in mind this is a community party. why dont you ask? 6pm ring a bell. is this draconian measure bought about by1) residents undue pressue or 2) her desire to enforce draconian measure ergo boost her promotion chances?

Anonymous said...

At 3am a lorry passing or the sea crashing against the beach probably wont wake you, or certainly keep you awake. But high pitch shouting is most irritating. I guess that's how we have evolved. I don't blame the pubs, personally I think there should be somewhere to drink 24/7. It's the mindless idiots that is the problem. Empty your chamber pots on them I say residents of lower High Street.

Anonymous said...

It's the mindless idiots that is the problem

and should be dealt with. if you are caught speeding or drink driving you are arrested and charged why not with the drunks a warning then arrest a few hard examples and problem (perhaps not solved) but helped. problem is the police are kept down lower high st. by residents request, and other crimes go unatended. personal experience.

Anonymous said...

Weather you like it or not, there are residents living in the area of the bars & clubs. These people dont all complain unless they have good reason to do so. get it clear that none of these people, regardless of age, where they come from, or if they own or rent,or may run a business from their property, want to Shut down the pubs and bars. I think what they would like to see is some mature management from the
bars that kick out at 3a.m., and those that can control the noise levels of the music that drones out into the street week in and week out. Show some respect for residents & property, when those enibriated then piss,vomit,smash & litter, & wish the whole of Swanage to hear their vile and agressive expletives and anti-social behaviour, which prevents many residents from enjoying thier human right to a peaceful enjoyment of their HOME. Why do these people think its their right to behave in such an uncontrolable manner? - when its those residents that have to pay the rates to extra police the area, and those residents that dont get much sleep, and those residents that have to clean up the sick and piss, smashed glass and bottles from the revelling in the early hours the next morning? maybe its you that wants to get rid of all the residents!! Oh and there would be your ghost town, and your night time economy would shrink very quickly!!!

Anonymous said...

"I suspect you are not a local"

Why is it that anyone who detests the attitude of Swanage exceptionalism is assumed not to be a "local", whatever that is. As it happens I have lived here for 63 years. In that time the High Street has changed from being the town's prime shopping street to being secondary and even tertiary for retail. The lower part is largely flats with very few shops. Most of the pubs are restaurants in all but name with the exception of the bars which face an uncertain future. These are the problem.

In addition the demographics have changed. When I started drinking in town, and I will refrain from saying at what age as there was less hysteria about underage drinking then, the East Bar, Shades, White Horse were packed with young people all summer. We spilled out into the street because they were so full. Upstairs at the Horse it took longer to get through the crush to the bar than it did to drink your pint. By the age of 18 we had moved up to the Ship or Lion where you had some chance of getting a seat. Pubs closed at 10.30 in the week, 11 at weekends. The noise then ended.

Contrast that with today. There are far fewer young people in the population in general and this is particularly the case in seaside resorts. Most of the pubs are almost empty until late. Everything has been shifted several hours forward. My sons go out to the pub at about the time I used to get back home. There was not a noise problem at 3am in the lower High Street a few decades ago simply because everyone had gone home. Members of the Club, when that came into being, tended to bahave themselves as they did not want to loose their membership.

There are simply fewer and fewer of the age group which is the core market for the bars. Drinking patterns have changed. By the time they arrive at the bars most people do not in fact want to drink a vast amount. There are of course exceptions. A previous owner of the Club used to somplain that most of his customers sat over a single drink for hours.

Someone suggested arresting people. This is not the answer. What do you arrest them for? Talking loudly is not an offence. This is about educating people to accept that they should go home quietly after a night out.

Anonymous said...

Someone suggested arresting people. This is not the answer. What do you arrest them for? Talking loudly is not an offence
So if its talking loudly there are no other problems? and what do you call loudly? I now live out of town, but still get people talking as they walk past. thye dont piss or vomit as a prevoius poster said yes they are a pain, but hey ho they are just enjoying themselves.

You are in the same age group as myself I may be a tad youinger but I remember taking home the lasses from the local hotels at 230 am and yes we were boistrous. So you agree talking loudly should not be arrested? so what do we do employ mind police? the other poster says they piss and vomit (his words not mine) that is an offence so bloody arrest them, you can't have it both ways. And surely you know that since you were a lad more flats have been built. or am I just senile and imagining it?

Another reason noise has increased, yes the smoking ban! bought in by namby pamby do gooders who have by their actions seen the demise of the "pub" by that I dont mean the sterile boring bars and spoons I mean the "pub". If 25 people are forced out on the st. at 12.30 yes they are going to "talk loudly".

Another point I have bought up but seems to be ignored. A lot of these youngsters get half drunk before they leave home. So should we blame the co.op/ budgens? yes, when they sell lager at 20 cans for £12 thats about 50% cheaper than tied pubs can buy it for. To be honest If I was buying a place I would certainly look around to see in what area I am buying. You have what in that area, cafe's bars resturants, bars pubs club, shops amusement arcade. hardly the place to go for a quiet life, and I am not condone any antisocial behaviour. And go find out about the jubilee street party and see who has capped the music at 6pm yes your friendly local police. perhaps after pressure from you hard done by locals what next no church bells no talking. As I said be carefull for what you wish for!

Anonymous said...

While I don't condone any anti social behaviour, noise problems, vandalism, pissing in the street, litter etc I still think, as someone who frequents the town of a weekend, that the problem is massivley exaggerated. That isn't to say it doesn't exist to an extent.

As I have said before it's not really fair to blmae the bars and pubs. If they are allowed to stay open to a certain time they probably will to maximise takings. However most of the license holders and owners in the town are responsible and issue bans and remove people who are a source of trouble. The local pubwatch scheme is very effective in dealing with this people as is the increased police presence.

The club sometimes closes at 3am, most of the times that it does I'd say 98% of the patrons have been moved along by 3:15.

Many people on this forum seem to actively want to blame the pubs and bars for everything. Recently a window was smashed during the early hours of a weekday morning. The club hadn't been open at all yet people were still quick to blame them. Many also want to blame them for what happens off premises. How can they be held responsible for it and why should they? No-one ever seems to be able to answer that one.

I do agree that drinking culture has changed. People tend to gather at someones house and drink cheap supermarket booze before heading out rather than spending a night out on pricey pub booze.

With regards to all pubs shutting by midnight, a nice idea but not a pratical one. Ok, everyone may be home earlier but at the moment you have a few closing at 11, a few at 12, a few at 1 and one at 3. Not everyone leaving those places will go on to a later bar, some will drift home meaning less people about come 3am. Everywhere kicking out at midnight (or 11 or 3) will mean everyone outside at the same time. More noise.

The problem isn't the late opening hours, the owners, the landlords, license holders, the police or the majority of customers, it's the idiotic miniority who can't handle their ale and have little respect. These people need to be educated or banned.

Anonymous said...

To the person who said you should look at the area first, maybe some people have lived here before the present Bar owner took over, when there have never been such problems. 98% dont go home mate, they shout & scream & fight. Ive been out there. Ive seen it for myself. They just dont care, or are too drunk to be in control of their bodily functions. They are spoiling itfor everyone else and getting Swanage Bars a bad name. In other parts of the country this wouldnt be accepted in such a tight area as lower high street. Also it would be a good idea to bring back membership to the late club, then you could really weed out the trouble makers

Anonymous said...

Ohhhh please please please you lucky residents of the lower high street, can you if I beg, let the rest of us mere mortals, have one of the six police officers that lined the streets last night, you are so greedy three ploice cars and all those lovely policemen..... IT's a bloody shame I could not have the attention of just ONE when some theiving scum bag nicked £700 worth of our property the other day!

Marc Swallow said...

I came on holiday here with my girlfriend and it was pretty wild at 3 when the night club kicks out. We came here for a nice holiday. Huh. The other little bar up the road had a much better atmosphere and frendlier people. Shame they didnt have a bigger place as thats what Swanage needs. We are under 25 by the way.

Anonymous said...

To the person who said you should look at the area first,
Yes and I stand by that comment.

Its easy mate jst ask for a licence review, a few concerned residents could get together and ask for one, just be very prepared to tell the truth and produce quality evidence. Also is he/they not local families dont get on here moaning go see them both!

Also it would be a good idea to bring back membership to the late club, then you could really weed out the trouble makers
Agree 100% 24 hr prior notice with a least one form of ID.

Also ask yourself why is there so much trouble? I am led to believe that the current owner of the club was chairman of pubwatch. Also led to beleive he was not very good at it. The last 3 chairmen have been from lower high st. bars?????

Anonymous said...

You people need to get a life!

David Furmage said...

Nah you all need to get a life you cowards , all ranting about what you can do to make things better. Put your names to your post and show us if you have any you know what.

Pubs can't shut in swanage it brings in money , money gives people jobs , high unemployment = high crime rate duh. If people want the pubs shut then you won't mind if these people who will be out of jobs cos you decided to buy your holiday flat above a pub , come round and ransack your house then will you? Really think about it. If trouble is on the streets the police like they are paid to do is patrol the streets , not the landlords 6 hours after you have left the pub.

David Furmage said...

On a funny note could I maybe suggest that all residents of the lower high street buy ear plugs. No noise then and a perfect nights sleep for all.

The main culprit here is the smoking ban. So people go outside to smoke. Maybe it should be just for smoking and not drinking aswell. Though leaving your drinks inside does have it's risks aswell. Them being stolen or spiked.

Anyway this post is about the planning of flats , not the
planning of arresting and shutting down pubs:)

Anonymous said...

Is it a resedential area being encroached upon by pubs and bars or a an entertainment area (for lack of a better term, but you know what I mean) being encroached upon by resedential properties?

I think the latter.

Wouldn't it be nice if Swanage could have an area void of second homes, holiday flats and moaning old doddery locals and where we have a fantatsic selection of bars, pubs, clubs, restaurants and shops that can open late. And a marina.

Good for jobs, good for holiday makers, a good atmosphere and few residents to pee off.

Unfortunatley, for many reasons, we are in a situation where there is more money to be made by converting a pub into flats rather than running it as a pub.


There is little reason why people can't stay out until 3am drinking and act like normal human beings. The problem isn't the bars/pubs/clubs but the miniority in them who need to be educated in how to handle their ale and how to respect others and their property.

Anonymous said...

Pubs is good, 3 am licences are not

Anonymous said...

When The Club ~ East Bar etc were the Victoria Hotel, Licencing Laws were 10am to 2pm & 6pm to 10pm. However, hotels and Clubs serving hours were not restricted, hotels, as now could serve drink to their guests 24/7.

Anonymous said...

Pubs is good, 3 am licences are not

I dont think any pub in town has a 3am licence. All I want is police avaialble to deal with other crimes, rather that bowing to the wishes of a few or the demands of a career officer.
I hope when your beloved inspector destroys the folk festival and carnival the moaners responsible will not be made welcome in swanage busiineses.

David Furmage said...

Excellent above post :) and there was someone saying that pubs don't bring money into Swanage.

Anonymous said...

7.06pm is wrong. Bar Se7en aka the club has a 3am licence. The noise and criminal damage levels are worst when they are open until then. Unfortunately it is the behaviour of a small number of people which is taking a good deal of police resources. I am appalled thet anyone should seek to blame the victims of the noise for having the cheek to want to be able to sleep at night.

Anonymous said...

No one has blamed the victims of the noise, some have said what do you expect living near pubs etc, others that the problem has been exaggerated, none have blamed them. What a stupid comment.

Anonymous said...

I don't agree. The tenor of a good many postings is that if we loose late opening it will be the fault of the people who have complained about noise, vandalism etc. rather than the fault of those who do the damage. Time and again I have read comments saying variously that there is no problem, it is exagerrated if there is one, it is only a tiny minority who want to do anything about it or that crime and disturbance are somehow sanctified by the fact that they have not previously been dealt with or even are a price worth paying so that a few dozen people can drink in a bar until 3am and of course the suggestion that if you live somewhere noisy you have only yourself to blame for not living somewhere quiet. The tone of the majority of these is that is the victims of the noise and vandalism who would be the cause of the ending of late drinking, were that to happen, not the miscreants who have caused the complaints.

Anonymous said...

7.06pm is wrong. Bar Se7en aka the club has a 3am licence

I said NO pub had a3am licence the club is a different matter allways has had a later licence.

What gets me about this whole issue is why the residents dont get together meet the landlords/ladies discuss tell them what they want and get some common ground, if that fails, get together and ask for a licence review of all the places they feel are causing the problems. I do feel they wont do this for a number of reasons. Firstly they dont see why they should have to pay, next is they are cowards and wont put names to paper so to speak, the next reason that after PDC review it goes to court and the complainers would have to provide evidence of who is causing what damage etc and that would be very diffucult to do, therefore natural justice wont be done. Why should large amounts of police resources be used, for this when there are procedures in place. Why should the majority suffer for a few if you have proof that tom dick or harry is causing problems the police should act against them.

And to the point people raised about it being a residential area, I am sure you are wrong there was for many years a commercial garage where the flats are now, so a lot of you moaners have moved in since.

Anonymous said...

There have been a number of meetings with various parties including our MP and the police, councillors etc at which representatives from the pubs/bars participated.

Having those whose quality of life has been reduced curtly dismissed as "moaners" shows the appalling attitude they are up against/

Anonymous said...

Oops. They were not at the meetings with Richard Drax.

Anonymous said...

Part of the problem is that the landlords maintain that after their customers have gone up the road it is not their problem so discussing it with them is largely futile. They are not too happy when it is pointed out that if they were not open into the small hours there would be a great deal fewer "revellers" making their way round the town at these times. You might think this is an interesting case of causation being seperated from responsibility as it would seem as they refuse to recognise the unintended consequences of their businesses. This is something of a Pontius Pilate defence to my way of thinking though.

I am not claiming that without late opening there would never be any problems but I do think there would be a considerable reduction.

Anonymous said...

They are not too happy when it is pointed out that if they were not open into the small hours there would be a great deal fewer "revellers" making their way round the town at these times

Well quite. Obvious isn't it. But what you, and those that trot this argument out don't seem to realise is that if places close earlier people will start drinking earlier.

The trouble will still happen, just a couple of hours earlier. What a fantastic soloution.

Also, why and how are the landlords responsible for what happens 'up the road' off their premises? No-one ever answers this one.

Forget Swanage, and the lower High Street and lets just do some general hypothesising.

Man in a pub, drinking a fair bit but behving himself and no trouble but is drunk. Leaves the pub, gets in a car and kills someone. Pubs fault?

Different man, same thing, drunk but no trouble, leaves, go to his partners place, has a row, leaves to go home and smashes a window in anger. Pubs fault?

A lady this time, because this is the 21st century after all, 3 large roses and a g&t down her gullet but whilst being drunk behaving herself, maybe a bit loud but what drunk woman isn't, leaves the pub before closing. Walks home. Now what I haven't told you is that this woman lacks recpect for people and property, especially when drunk, and tips over some bins on the way home, littering the streets. Pubs fault?

The answer isn't closing the pubs/clubs earlier (maybe in the case of noise), as I said drunk people will be louder that sober, the minority will vandalise and do wee wees in alleys. Closing the pubs earlier just means these things will happen earlier.

Also closing all pubs at the same time is a terrible idea.

As I have said before, while there are problems in the lower high street, and I speak as someone who frequents the town of a weekend, it is being exaggerated. However there are problems, but the methods of combating being suggested are ill thought out.

Anonymous said...

Heard all that before. If the noise is earlier it is before people go to bed, I know many of those who face this problem and they are not the sort of folk who go to bed at 9. It is noise at 2 or 3 that causes upset. There is planty of noise from Snackbar but it ends by 12.

Anonymous said...

Heard all that before. If the noise is earlier it is before people go to bed, I know many of those who face this problem and they are not the sort of folk who go to bed at 9. It is noise at 2 or 3 that causes upset. There is planty of noise from Snackbar but it ends by 12.


And to be honest mate the rest of us have as well>Many on here have offered opinions to sort this out. Including licence review, meetings telling to onwner/s what you want etc . when these premises put in for the new licenec why did you not object then. Its simple so damn simple its almost funny , by your last statement you say that it qiet whn the snack bar shuts so by that you are saying either there is no noise at all or no noise till the club kicks out? so therefore the club is the problem. ask for it to be shut at 130/2 am. It is so simple if you have the eveidence that the club is causing big problems you will win the licence review, if you loose then you either have insufficient evidence or the panel thought there was no problem so that means it is as we suspect not an issue. I cannot for the life of me fathom why this has not been done. It cost very little to sort/send the paper work, if i owned the club and a large envelope with a review request fell on my mat asking for a 1am? closing I would move heaven and earth to sort it out. Bottom line is if you are right and have the evidence you will win if not bad luck... but do you know what that means? the rest of the area can have it police back!

Anonymous said...

The noise, screaming, shouting and high revving car engines, (don't they know how to change gear?), are bad enough, but they also hide cans of cider/beer in the gardens of nearby properties which are consumed when they leave their pub/club venue. Obviously the empties are scattered on the streets around the Lwr. High St. They do bring their glasses from the Pub/club I have collected 4 pint glasses on a Sunday morning, which I put into my recycling box. The 'Skins of the fruits of 'love/lust' I put in the nearest wheelie bin, unless they're in my garden over the wall from Piggy Lane. In future I'll take photos and and post them on the site.
RobO

Anonymous said...

Re: '9:14' At the Snack Bar's Licencing Application Hearing when asked; "why should a 'SNACK Bar' need an alcohol licence?" They replied; 'so that if someone wants a glass of wine or beer with their snack we can oblige! I can't see any food just optics on their webcam?

Anonymous said...

My father managed the bars at the Victoria Hotel for over 20 years when it was owned by Capt. Ball, who also owned the Grosvenor Hotel. The licensing hours were 10.30am to 2pm and 6pm to 10pm and 10.30pm on a Saturday night. Sunday was 12 noon to 2pm and 7pm to 10pm. The Saloon Bar (East Bar) was purely for the elite and the Shades Bar (Bar 7) was for the working class, my father never encountered problems there, of course there was drunks, always has been and always will be but elsewhere in the town there was regular Saturday night fights between the Swanage boys and the lads coming over from Wareham or with the RAF stationed at Worth. This generally happened in the Labour Hall, then next to Arkwright’s, where the Saturday night dances was held. This was closed down due to redevelopment and entertainment was provided in the pubs, the Lowe High Street having the majority of these, this became the Mecca for the young people in town, I was one of these that used the pubs for this reason. Thirty years ago I can remember seeing youngsters vandalising cars in Kings Road at 3am, they are probably respected citizens now and complaining of today’s youngsters, I know that there is behaviour that is unacceptable but think back, we have all done things that our parents wouldn’t have liked.
The Lower High Street is the nightlife of Swanage, sadly, we have too many residential premises there now, but if I was looking to buy a property, I would do my homework first, pubs, restaurants concentrated in a small area = noise, if that would upset me, I wouldn’t buy, it’s as simple as that.
These businesses are entitled to earn their money as the law allows and as far as I know, they all work within it, and everyone is entitled to have a social venue, for those people that are creating noise at 3.15am, that’s up to the police to deal with, but from what I can understand, it’s a very small minority. If they are that bad and persistent, the police could have an ASBO placed on them barring them from that area, this would help tremendously.
p.s. I don't want to be anonymous, my name is Linda Welsh

Anonymous said...

A good post Linda my sentiments exactly. You nust remember the garage and other things there?

Anonymous said...

The noise, screaming, shouting and high revving car engines, (don't they know how to change gear?),

Do people who drink late actaully drive? if they do this is a criminal act and the police should stop them as they leave the area, within 1 month problem solved.

they also hide cans of cider/beer in the gardens of nearby properties which are consumed when they leave their pub/club venue

How on gods green earth can the club/pub be responsible for this? I can;t fathom your logic. If a pub refuses to serve someone and they leave, and then they go find their stash, its the pubs fault?

Obviously the empties are scattered on the streets around the Lwr. High St

This week alone I have cleared from our garden half a dozen cans a burger box and a used condom, we live 1/2 a mile away so its not just you who suffers this. More Bins? video eveidence?

I think you have totaly discredited the whole thing by your comments. Read what you put.

According to you the pubs/clubs are responsible for drink driving, hiding stashes of beer, love making and littering.

Robin from Swanage said...

I am sorry about the delay in replying to anonymous 6/5/12 8:35. I have got no idea who reads Swanageview. Somebody important told me that several people were "not best pleased" with what I had put in Swanageview and told me to be more careful about what I put in writing. I am not going to be intimidated.

The Purbeck Society can be contacted at info@purbecksociety.co.uk. The chairman is committed to retaining the character of Swanage and the planning officer has had many learned discussions with him. Another committee member launched a formidable campaign against Seacourt before she joined the Purbeck Society committee. Purbeck District Council are aware that many of the 350 members of the Purbeck Society are armchair members who are asleep most of the time so the Council does not take as much notice of the Society as the committee would like.I think the Council listens politely to what the Purbeck Society says and then carries on with what they have decided to do.

Anonymous said...

How does one join the society? Is it like the masons? Secret handshakes and all favours and backhanders, and at a certain level do I learn who really shot JFK and who really has control over the Mowlem?

Seriously though where do I sign up? They probably need some members under 50.

David Furmage said...

Well said , like I suggested at the town hall meeting the police know who the culprits are. Have a name and shame photo wall In pubs with these idiots on the wall in full view for everyone too see. Also if caught they do their time in town cleaning streets and toilets with jumpsuit on with I . B .N on the back. Which means I ve been naughty. Simple embaress them. Nothing better than bring them down a few pegs by something so simple.

Anonymous said...

Some posters seem to have problems grasping the idea that there can be unintended consequences. The owners of bars do not set out to flood the town with misbehaving drunks at 3am but if the bars closed at 12 there is little doubt that there would be significantly fewer of them around in the small hours. The position of the bars seems to be that they have only caused something if they intended or willed it to happen. This is not the case.

Sally Maltby said...

It really is a no brainer – just get rid of the 3am licence and make it, say 1am better midnight – can’t think why this hasn’t been done.
Up to around midnight the streets are sort of self-policing, the local citizens are out and about – and hopefully tutting about bad behaviour......
Purbeck Society by the way has a brand new web site!

Anonymous said...

It really is a no brainer – just get rid of the 3am licence and make it, say 1am better midnight – can’t think why this hasn’t been done.
Ahh the answer to everything then. why should we all suffer for a few? again someone like sally comes along and with one sweep of the pen( or mouse) says everything will be ok. The point many posters are making sally is that this has been going on for years this is not a new situation, read linda welsh poss for goodness sake. and another thing this area is a comercial area these pubs and clubs did not arrive via the tardis after the flats and other places were built. I think this gets peoples backs up.And my personal bug bear is why so many damnded police are there.

Anonymous said...

Criminal damage, fights and noise. Was that a rhetorical question or are you simply unaware of why? Is it simply that a small number of people have been making a nuiscance of themselves for years and imagine that therefore they should be allowed to continue to do so. What, they say, change our behaviour? Change? In Swanage! How absurd.

Anonymous said...

It really is a no brainer – just get rid of the 3am licence and make it, say 1am better midnight – can’t think why this hasn’t been done.

You sound like a no brainer. Closing places earlier isn't the solution really. If you close a pub earlier people will start drinking in it earlier. The problems will still happen, just a few hours earlier.

If someone is an arsehole they will be an arsehole at 2pm, 11pm or 3am.

Anonymous said...

If someone is an arsehole they will be an arsehole at 2pm, 11pm or 3am.

Love that statement but so true.

A further point why not close the kebab shop earlier then you wont get the youngsters hanging about, they are the niosey ones also they love cans of beer/cider.

Anonymous said...

I am aware that I have referred to this on previous Items on the Blog, but the Swanage Residents Association, (SRA) were represented at The 'TASK GROUP' Meetings at the Town Hall once every two months. I know because I was there as the RSA representative. However due to lack of support the SRA was disbanded and the representation ceased.

I do not know if they still continue but the meetings were a useful conduit for getting concerns of the Residents to the Police, Town Hall etc in confidence so they could act accordingly.
Are there still such meetings ?
RobO

Sally Maltby said...

No, you miss the point, there's a huge difference between say midnight and 3.am we still adheare to various cultural norms in general like going to sleep at sometime early on in the night.
I'm not saying the earlier the better that's just daft.
There is reason and unreason...is there something else behind the keeping of the 3am. licence/s - it seems such an obvious no no to me?

Anonymous said...

Sally midnight is way past bedtime for many residents in the lower high street. You are missing the point yourself dear.

And re: kebab shop, it opening late is a recent thing, the noise and people hanging around isn't.

While you lot may point out some valid problems you are terrible at coming up with solutions.

Anonymous said...

This is nonsense. I have been to a number of meetings with Lower High Street residents who have noise problems. None of them have complained about noise before midnight. That is a complete red herring. Some of them run businesses which are open in the evenings.

Anonymous said...

I have been to a number of meetings with Lower High Street residents who have noise problems. None of them have complained about noise before midnight. That is a complete red herring. Some of them run businesses which are open in the evenings.

Can I ask ONE question and an honest answer is required, you by your above statement have admitted to being in involved in allegeded noise in lower high st.

The question is simple. Why have not individuals or colective parties asked for a licenec review? this is a simple question and I feel if you fail to answer it, there is either not a problem or you dont want it sorted because it means work and exposure.

I await with bated breath!

Anonymous said...

Dear Bated Breath,

I am not sure why you have focussed on a licence review as the only remedy. As you probably know this is a quasi-judicial process and not as beguilingly simple as you suggest. in any case the demand is not to end late opening. All anybody is asking for is that the late drinkers go home quietly. The police think this is perfectly reasonable and have increased their presence in the area when there is late closing. If this does not work other avenues would have to be explored but I have the efforts of the police to persuade people not to make a lot of noise succeed. This issue is often presented in all or nothing terms, with landlords claiming opening after 12 is a vital part of the nighttime economy and dire predictions on this blog that without it Swanage would become depopulated. Both quite bizarre assertions.

Anonymous said...

oops "hope the efforts of the police..." not "have the efforts etc"

phil bird said...

Linda's post above describes exactly how Swanage used to be in the 60's and 70's. However she didn't mention that after closing time many pubs stayed open for 'afters' (some half the night !) and it was this demand for late drinking, in 1976, that the Victoria Club's late licence was applied for and granted, supported by many of the 'great and good' of Swanage.
Sadly, in her words, flats have sprung up in an area which was always commercial. Most of the old hotels are now flats. They even housed some older people in brand new flats opposite the White Horse where they built on the Cheasby garage and coach site. Why didn't they house younger people here ?
Why buy or live in the Lower High Street or near a pub ? Answer: because its cheaper !
This blog started out posting about planning. Surely the planning dept. should be delighted when a pub/bar puts in to change its use. Now the East Bar has had permission granted perhaps others will follow suit. Make the whole area residential and get rid of the noisy young.
I hate bad behaviour bad language and vandalism
and there is no excuse but 99.9 % of the kids are good kids and are simply going out to have fun just like we did.

Anonymous said...

As you probably know this is a quasi-judicial process and not as beguilingly simple as you suggest.

To put it bluntly mate it BLOODY well is done two myself so please dont comment on it ok.

Your arguement is a laugh, many anti's on here openly state that the noise is caused at 3 am who is open then? the club. one poster says no one is complaining about midnight, again 3 am comes up. For christ sake you lot get your stories right. When the club kicks out at 3am if there is 200 people in there 5% causing trouble will mean 10 loud obnoxious people arrest them! you have our share of the plod down there give them something to do. You people really are living in a dream world if you think that people at that time of night are going to be quiet. If they urinate and vomit arrest them, £80 public order fine persistant offenders ASBO or pub watch ban.

And dont think its just you that gets noise, 1230 last night appro. 6 people were chatting and making a noise, I looked out of the window and they wwere all over 40, nearer 55 I should estimate.And the legion has had some complaints the EHO have been out 2 or 3 times.

I repeat the question why wont you moaners put in for a licence review!

Anonymous said...

Not OK. I will comment on what I like. I was at a meeting at which a member of the licencing panel held forth on the difficulties of a review. Was she lying? Were we misled? It is a pity you were not there to challenge her as a number of us left the meeting under the impression that this was not a particularly accessible remedy.

Anonymous said...

"flats have sprung up in an area which was always commercial."

This is a strange comment. There are flats in this area which have existed for well over a century. The Victoria was oringinaly a house. There are flats over the shops/restaurants from the Vic to the White Horse, built in the nineteenth century. The Horse forms part of Victoria Terrace built between 1835 and 1837. This is where John Mowlem lived. The upper parts are residential. Across the road the upper part of New Look and adjacent properties are all Victorian and are residential. There was a substantial red brick house where the flats over Snackbar/Tratt are now. In fact this was an upmarket residential area at one time but went into decline in the twentieth century.

The High Street was the prime retail location in the first half of the twentieth century but started to loose its position in the 1960s when the centre of gravity shifted to Station Road. Two things then happened, both common to declining shopping streets. Residential use increased and pubs and hotel bars morphed into "bars" in their modern form. These are conflicting uses, hence the present fracas. It is wrong to maintain that there was little or no residential land use here until recently and it is wrong to claim that the style of licensed premises is the same as it was 50 or more years ago.

Declined shopping streets are characterised by charity shops but also takeaway fast food, tattoo parlours, bookies, amusement arcades, bars, and pawn shops and whatever else preys on the economically disadvantaged. We have a selection of these but they are symptoms of decline rather than evidence of a thriving economy.

phil bird said...

Yes 12/5 is correct but my comment is not 'strange'. I also didn't infer there was little or no residential accomodation in the area.
As the writer points out The High Street was the 'prime retail location' in Swanage. Yes the shop owners had living accommodation above the shops and there were several up-market houses and nice gardens including the rose garden in front of the red bricked house, later to become the sports shop.
All I tried to point out is that more and more hotels and houses were converted to flats all the way from the Manor House, the Vic, down to the Ship Inn and beyond resulting in alot more people living in the area.
The writer is also correct about the face of high streets around the country changing. But thats our fault. All of us. Perhaps if we all shopped locally and didn't go to 'out of town' supermarkets etc and supported our local shops then the so called decline could be halted.
This again brings us back to the start of this blog and planning !

Anonymous said...

I agree to some extent Phil but you did say "flats have sprung up" which suggests there were none before. No matter. I think that two types of change have collided. The High Street has become increasingly residential, as have all the patches of secondary or tertiary retail in Swanage. It is not that long ago that shops were strung out all the way to Herston. Kings Road had several that have now gone and there were a few in New Swanage, or North Swanage as the estate agents now call it. Pretty much all housing now. At the same time there has been a change to later drinking times and rather less inhibition about making a noise in the street and perhaps an increased expectation on the part of people in their homes that they will not be subject to disturbance. This is a recipe for conflict.

Perhaps there was more tolerance of noise, drunkenness and street disorder 50 years ago. There was also more tolerance of domestic violence, racism and a range of things no longer regarded as acceptable. We don't tolerate blood sports either for that matter. I rather suspect the inhabitants of Swanage protested loudly that they had always enjoyed dog fighting and bull baiting and did not see why they should be deprived of them by a lot of do gooders.

Sally Maltby said...

'Sally midnight is way past bedtime for many residents in the lower high street. You are missing the point yourself dear.'
Darn, I've been trying to think of a put-down of the equivalent of 'dear' all day but it's defeated me!

Anonymous said...

Perhaps I should address this one to the museum. I wonder how many of the upper parts of buildings in Lower High Street were built as holiday apartments rather than as living quarters for the shop keepers. This was popular after Swanage became a resort but before the mass holiday market took over. You see this on old photos and you can still see faded wording on the side of the building on the corner of De Moulham and Rabling Roads.

Anonymous said...

I was at a meeting at which a member of the licencing panel held forth on the difficulties of a review. Was she lying? Were we misled? It is a pity you were not there to challenge her as a number of us left the meeting under the impression that this was not a particularly accessible remedy.

The new licencing act was bought in for many reasons, one being the public ie neighbours who are an interested party being able to have some say. The licence is issued as long as the 4 main components are adhered to. And it is a fairly simple step to ask and get a review, simpler than costing the rest of us our police presence in swanage. the problem as I have always stated is your evidence! who causes the problem when why etc. You can't just say to the panel well i heard a nosie at 330 am it must have been related to this club/pub. I think the reasons you lot wont go for a review are many, the most crucial being who to blame.

The poster who put all we want is them to leave without noise must be boardering delusional. If people have been out, for a celebration they are going to be boisterious, and fairly loud, I'm affraid sileince does not come into it. And what ever is said about residential area, those flats opposite the horse were built on commercial site, you try getting change of use in those premises now not an easy thing (includes all high st.). Again I ask why no review?

PS put your money where your mouths are and get some legal advice...... perhaps even your house insurance may cover it.

Anonymous said...

I rather suspect the inhabitants of Swanage protested loudly that they had always enjoyed dog fighting and bull baiting and did not see why they should be deprived of them by a lot of do gooders.

That comment is a little below the belt.

Perhaps the people of swanage do protest, of all the incomers!

David Furmage said...

I tell you what's louder than any drunk person coming out of a pub. It's that friggin police helicopter. Can they not put a silencor on the thing. Talk about loud;)

Anonymous said...

My, my, 9,27 is a very pessimistic person. Strangely it is the "moaaers" who are the optomists as they hope a remedy that works for everyone can be found.

I don't know why 9.27 is fixated with a licence review as the only cure for a public order issue. They have not taken on board the fact that the complainants are looking for a solution which does not destroy anyone's business.

For many years the police tolerated the situation. This has now changed but it is taking a lot of manpower. If the police come to the conclusion that they cannot adequately enforce the peace it may be up to them to seek a review. If tax-payers object to the cost and diversion of officers from other locations they need to take this up with the police and I would also advocate getting in touch with their MP. Mr Drax is aware of the issue and has heard the views of the parties but this is an angle on which he has not been briefed. I am not sure what the people who are unhappy with this use of police resources want, whether itis a return to tolerating disorder or a clamp-down on the bars. It is hard to see how the police can step back and in effect admit they do not control the streets in a small seaside town. Once the message gets round that idiots can do whatever they like after midnight at weekends you can imagine the result. I wonder if they have thought through their position.

Anonymous said...

"That comment is a little below the belt.

Perhaps the people of swanage do protest, of all the incomers!"

That sort of proves my point. People move all over the place, round the country and round the globe. Most "Swanage people" have friends and relatives scattered across several continents but the poster seems to think there is some possible validity in a position objecting to anyone deciding to come and live here. Its another angle on Swanage exceptionalism, the notion that the rules binding everywhere else do not apply here. Quite often the people who grumble about incomers make the paradoxical assertions that the incomers both want to keep the place as it was when they arrived and want to change it to suit their tastes. Perhaps being able to hold two conflicting beliefs at the same time is the defiinging characteristic of a local!

Robin from Swanage said...

This debate has gone completely off the rails. It is supposed to be about the Coservation Area.

In reply to Anonymous 10/5/12 8:41pm the Purbeck Society meets on the 2nd Friday of each month, October to April, at The Mowlem Committee Room, 2.30pm. Admission is 50p, members, including tea and biscuits. More details on 01929 421794. They do coach trips in summer.

Under 50! The average age of the members is about 80. They come for an afternoon nap and the tea and biscuits. I am sure there are secret handshakes going on at Swanage and these people would love to hound me out of Swanage but the Purbeck Society lets me into their meetings and listens politely to my views even if they do not agree with them.

Anonymous said...

'Sally midnight is way past bedtime for many residents in the lower high street. You are missing the point yourself dear.'
Darn, I've been trying to think of a put-down of the equivalent of 'dear' all day but it's defeated me!

So you couldn't think of a reposte to the point I made or a better put down that 'dear'?

I WIN THE INTERNET!

Sally Maltby said...

No, just wondering why you felt the need to use the slightly patronising term 'dear' in your reply - but this is off point.

Anonymous said...

I felt like being slightly patronising.

Anonymous said...

Patronising and ill-informed to be polite about it.

Anonymous said...

Patronising yes, ill informed...not in the slightest.

Anonymous said...

New Look was actually the Trocadero Restaurant, this was silver service and positioned on the first floor, there was a bakers next door and Reynolds the Off Licence next to that. The Red Brick House was actually occupied by Dr. Purser who had his surgery there; this was before the doctors came together at Harbeton in Rempstone Road. Next to that was Sheasby’s Garage, (previously Dean’s) and coach company, South Dorset Coaches, they had a little office where you could book your day trips. The garage covered a big area; this is what was rebuilt into the retirement flats. Next came Wards Travel Office, rebuilt and now the Angling shop, Playland and next the lawned gardens for the Victoria Hotel, where incidentally, silver service teas were served to the guest, this continued well into the late 1950’s. This was built on and now it’s Quayside Court.
Any of the premises that were occupied then, did so because of the business that they ran below their living quarters. When my Dad managed the Victoria, there was a little sweet shop next to the Shades Bar, this was ran my Malcolm Scott’s dad and they lived above. Jurassic Outdoor Clothing was the Queens Hotel and restaurant, Jenkins was run by Mr & Mrs Hibbs who lived above, The Ship was the flag ship hotel of Strong’s of Romsey, a big brewery in those days, the hotel was lovely and was nationally acclaimed for its high standard. The whole of the Lower High Street was a busy bustling place, The Pier Head was a busy restaurant and cafĂ©, the hut next to it on the corner of Seymer Road, was the bus depot for Hants & Dorset and it was here you caught the bus to Bournemouth or Durlston.
This was never a quiet area, if you look at David Haysom and David Bragg’s book, Swanage & Purbeck in Old Photographs, look at page 95, Victoria Terrace in 1909, you will be hard pressed to find a residential property that isn’t attached to a retail outlet.
PDC Planners have got a lot to answer for in the desecration of our town, whilst I can understand retail premises floundering on the roads out of town, no property should be built within the town purely for residential use, look how they have managed to incorporate both in Kings Road East, this could have been done in the lower High Street. I also repeat what I wrote in my last comment, if you decide to live here; you must accept what goes with it.
Linda Welsh

phil bird said...

Linda Welsh's post above is spot on. I also recommend taking a look at David Haysom's book.
She is also correct in saying 'no property should be built within the town purely for residential use'. Building commercial premises below flats allows natural growth of a town instead of allowing an area to become total residential.
PDC Planners have indeed a lot to answer for and one wonders what led them to make some of their decisions.